www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Little children in church

Anathema! Anathema! Anathema!

And for all those who say let there be children's Mass,

Anathema! Anathema! Anathema!

A story involving our dearly missed Father Serge:

My daughter and I attended Liturgy at Father Serge's parish (then meeting in St. Kevin's Oratory in Dublin). It was small and packed, mainly with younger people, Ukrainians and Russians, mostly families with small children. These fussed and bothered the way little kids tend to do, and Father Serge paid them no mind.

One young man, perhaps eighteen months old, was fascinated with what Father Serge was doing at the Holy Table (and who wouldn't be?). On several occasions, he broke away from his mother and made a beeline for the Royal Doors, as fast as he could toddle. On the third try, he made it all the way into the sanctuary. In the middle of a prayer, Father Serge felt someone tugging on his phelonion (Did he feel the power go out from him, I wonder?). He looked down, and there was this baby looking up. Father Serge, not missing a beat, picked him up, gently turned him around, and pointed him back to his parents. The baby toddled off, and the Liturgy continued, none the worse for the brief intervention.

I agree with the other posters here. My priest and I go one step further than many in fact, in that my kliros can become something of a child minding centre at times. My priest's attitude, and I agree, when people complain about children crying is "Let them cry. If they don't come to liturgy they won't learn".

There's an awful lot of pressure in ROCOR for children to stand there and be quiet and for their parents to belt the daylights out of them if they dare disturb other people's time with Jesus. The fruits of this can be seen in the fact the the children and grand children of the founders of our parish don't come to church.

In our parish, children are welcome, the priest and I make them feel welcome, their parents get to sing in my choir and go out if they need to and it's a win win for us all.

See Robert Taft, Through Their Own Eyes: Liturgy as the Byzantines Saw It. Liturgy in the "Golden Age" was something like organized chaos. Many of the features of Orthodox church architecture and features of the liturgy were intended mainly for crowd control. Chrysostom constantly upbraided his flock for their bad behavior, which necessitated him placing men and woman on opposite sides of the aisle, with a barrier between them. According to Taft, the actual meaning of "Wisdom! Be attentive!" is "Stand up! Stop talking!" (and, Taft says, "Leave the women alone!").

I'd almost rather stay home in bed than sit through the ordinary form of the Mass.

Not quite fair. I have witnessed the Novus Ordo (I'm gonna call it what it is) celebrated both in English and in Latin in a very traditonal, reverent manner with the celebrant versus apsidem and the responses sung in plain and Gregorian chant by a well-trained schola. That it is almost impossible to find the Mass celebrated that well is no more surprising than how difficult it was to find the Tridentine Mass celebrated well in pre-conciliar days (something Father Serge pointed out in his essay "What Ever Happened to the Liturgical Movement?" Bad liturgy is usually due to a state of mind, rather than to the liturgical text itself--though, admittedly, a bad text is almost always the result of a faulty liturgical consciousness (witness the RDL).

At Holy Transfiguration, it is not unusual to see little kids in the kliros, on their dad's shoulders while the men lead the chanting. It's touching, in fact. Transfiguration may be the most child-friendly parish I have ever seen, Catholic or Orthodox.

I was thinking what I would do in such a case. I was thinking, since I sometimes serve at Divine Liturgy, is to run into the server's dressing room, get vested quickly, and fetch my child in the sanctuary

I must agree with Edward here. We often forget how effective the church can be in pacifying children. Parents should be encouraged to walk around and show children the icons.

Well, Stuart: that's why I said "almost"!

I don't have time to look over all the replies, but two quick points.
1. My dad was the Catholic in the house, and he took me and my sister to Mass my himself all the time, and he loved hearing children making noises throughout mass, because that meant that the parents cared enough to bring them. Plus, he really really loved children.
2. The Ruthenian parish I go to now is full of wiggling noisy children. That's how a community parish should be. If someone wants a quite and meditative experience, either they should find a monastic setting or go to the liturgy where children are less likely to be present.
An overall anti-child attitude is a very uncharitable one.

Have you tried taking the kids without your wife? They may only insist on her for comfort if they can see her. Then she can take a break and go to mass by herself every once in a while. That is something I can understand wanting to do.

How about Daddy takes the kids outside until they quiet down, and Mommy gets to stay at Liturgy? Nothing says he can't do that, and it takes a real man to deal with a squalling child.

Best idea I've seen yet! Outside of a nursing baby, there's no reason this can't happen, and it will probably be good for the little one and Daddy to learn their own way of dealing with things.

Elizabeth

I'm more than willing and at times I did take my turn. But for some reason in the last 2-3 weeks, my son would only calm down if mommy is there.

These things tend to go in phases, but there do seem to be some things that only mommy can fix. Each of my kids has hit a "daddy phase" at one time or another. With the first, I was mildly offended (hurt feelings). By the time baby number 3 came around, I was grateful!