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Minor Orders will also require something else that many clergy seem incapable of doing - teaching the faithful anything about their church.

The average person thinks thusly: if a man is really interested in 'all this church stuff' he goes to seminary and becomes a priest. This goes hand in hand with the belief that a priest (or bishop) is needed to hold any communal service {see below}. Imagine the confusion when suddenly there are a number of 'men in black' running around the place, and most of them with no plan to every become a priest! Shock-horror! Next thing to happen will be certain services/rites occuring without being attached to the Divine Liturgy. Followed by total anarchy. :p

Further to comment about needing priests... How many ECs have ever heard of a Reader's Service? Logic works likes this: A) the only *real* service is the Divine Liturgy, B) you need a priest/bishop for a Divine Liturgy, ergo you can't have a communal service without a priest/bishop.
During the Great Fast my parish added Saturday evening Vespers to the service schedule. Only one of the three resident clerics will serve Vespers (or any other service for which one cannot take a stipend). On one weekend he was going to be out of town. Knowing the other two wouldn't do it I suggested a Reader's service, as it was almost the weekend and therefore not easy to get word of the cancellation around. The answer was "no". (BTW, there was another 'service', you can guess what, schedule for after Vespers, so it wouldn't be a wasted trip for those who did show up early). Just imagine the explaining that the clergy would have had to do later: two clerics sitting around the corner and a layman leading a service. Much simpler to just cancel the service with no general warning. Sadly, this happened more than once.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Dear Friends:

If you go to our website:

www.saintelias.com [saintelias.com]

You can access pages dealing with the recent ordination to the Deaconate of Fr. Tibor Turi and the ordination of Ilya Galadza as server and reader.

That should about answer any lingering doubts.


defreitas

Hi again
Thanks for your replys. And sorry if I misunderstood anyones comments before my previous post and sorry for the previous comment about the suppression, It was a baseless assumption and I apologize for it, It was not my intent to create a Latin Rite discussion of any kind. Sorry. Did I mis read something, but did you all say that singers have to be tonsured in the Byzantine Rite? Thats very intereasting.(BTW I very much enjoy the chanting in the Byzantine rite churches, very beautiful music)

I don't know what the Orthodox tradition on this is, but I've been to two Byzantine-rite parishes. One has a group of readers, none vested, standing in the pews. It also has a non-vested lay choir.

The other has a proper cantor's stand plus a tonsured reader and two deacons (those not serving the Liturgy), all of whom are vested. There's also has a (youth) choir, and there are a few young laymen who are permitted to hang around the cantor's stand and do so for most services. (obviously the parish is hoping that they'll move on to bigger and better things someday.......)


Just out of curiousity, Reader Photios mentions that he apparently doesn't shave his beard or cut his hair. I presume there's a canon or custom that requires or recommends this for anyone who's ordained? If so, can someone provide a reference for me?

Thanks,

Marc

Good to see the Ukrainians keeping it real.

Then again, St. Elias seems like an amazing church. It's beautiful and follows the old tradition of wooden churches, they seem to be very orthodox, they're active, and they've got vocations.

Now, what are the rest of us doing wrong? Why can't every church be like this (not speaking about architecture)?

Because it would mean every church being beautiful, keeping tradition (read: no innovation ministries), being orthodox, active, knowing what to do with vocations ....

Joe

Dear Domilsean,

St Elias sets a truly great example of a real "Orthodox in communion with Rome" Ukrainian Church!

Alas, there are other Ukies who just might find it a bit "too Eastern" etc.

My parish of St Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church (that was used in the film "My Big Fat Greek Wedding") is really the best parish of all . . .

Alex

This made me wonder though. We wouldn't want to confuse the laity with church services in place of their community rosary. The laity have been leading private prayers in a community setting for years. I can see how changing that would be anarchy. :p

Joe

Dear Joe,

And your point is . . .?

Alex

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/deacon.htm#_ftn1

This has two minor differences from the Russian practice ("Command ye" is said by two deacons in the Altar rather than by the subdeacons presenting the candidate, and the vesting does not include presentation with the Deacon's Service Book [with accompanying "Axios!"]), but the Ukrainian Catholic rite has numerous differences: Many of these are significant, especially, there is no presentation of the candidate to the people and clergy so that they can protest the ordination, and there is an entire Prayer during the Laying on of Hands omitted (two prayers, rather than three, invoking the Holy Spirit); also, many of the other difference would make the ceremony look different, such as the dialogs before the Laying on of Hands, and the saying out loud of the Litany.

I'm happy to detail the differences if anyone wished; meanwhile, I'd like to ask if anyone has any notion how this came about. At the time of the Unions, the Ukrainian Church was unambiguously part of the Russian Church, and surely they used the same Bishop's Service Book (Archiejskij Chinovnik)... because these were needed in such small quantities, they were rarely printed (and I recall in the 1970s Bishops from the Moscow Patriarchy traveling to Jordanville to buy them, because that was [and probably still is] the only place in the world where they are still in print in Slavonic)
.
Also, the Ordination of the Reader is a bit different from the Orthodox rite.

So, how did they end up diverging so?

Photius, Reader

I think I made it in my previous post.

BTW, my wife and I enjoyed watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding again on TV last night. Beautiful temple. I'm sure the organ was dubbed in for those who are Eastern Christian impaired?

Joe

My apologies, the previous post had its first paragraph amputated. Also, I've found the "missing" third prayer of Laying on of Hands in the Ukrainian Catholic version; bizarrely (IHMO), it is prefaced with this rubric: "The Bishop rises and places his right hand upon the newly ordained deacon and says this prayer:", and the bishop sits down between the previous prayer and this one; so, this prayer, which Invokes the Holy Spirit is intended by Ukrainian Catholics, as opposed to Orthodox, to be a post-ordination prayer!

------- Commence Intended Previous Post -------

Christ is Risen!
The difference between the hours during Pentecost as opposed to the rest of the year are the same whether done with a priest or without a priest (at least in Rusyn practice).

During Pascha (from the ninth hour on bright Saturday through the Sixth Hour on the eve of the Ascension), in all services, "O Heavenly King ..." is replaced with "Christ is Risen ..." thrice.
In services that begin with "O come let us worship ...", that is replaced by "Christ is Risen ..." thrice; but, if "Christ is Risen ..." previously replaced "O Heavenly King ..." in the same service, then "O come let us worship ..." is intact.

Thus, for example, if the Third and Sixth Hours are read in sequence, "Christ is Risen ..." replaces "O Heavenly King ..." and replaces "O come let us worship ..." at the beginning of the Sixth Hour, but "O come let us worship ..." is said, as usual, beginning of the Third Hour.

Note that in Greek practice, there is a dismissal at the end of the sixth and ninth hours; this changes analogously to the dismissal at the end of Vespers, matins, or the Holy Liturgy. In Rusyn practice, however, only the First Hour has a dismissal, and this does not change.

From the ninth Hour on the eve of the Ascension through Great Vespers of the Sunday of the Trinity, "O Heavenly King ..." is simply omitted and not replaced by anything (excepting the silent prayers of the Sacred Servers before "Blessed is the Kingdom ...", when the Troparion of the Ascension replaces it).

Photius, Reader
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Third time's a charm! I Shouldn't do this between doing other things ... sorry!

------- Commence Intended Previous Correctiont -------
My apologies, the previous post had its first paragraph amputated. Also, I've found the "missing" third prayer of Laying on of Hands in the Ukrainian Catholic version; bizarrely (IHMO), it is prefaced with this rubric: "The Bishop rises and places his right hand upon the newly ordained deacon and says this prayer:", and the bishop sits down between the previous prayer and this one; so, this prayer, which Invokes the Holy spirit is intended to be a post-ordination prayer!

------- Commence Intended Previous Post -------

Christ is Risen!
Looking at the services of ordination, there are many differences between yours and the Orthodox rites. This was obvious to me from my memory of the rites, but since I don't own a copy of them, I searched the web, and found an English translation of the Order for the Ordination of a Deacon as done in the Patriarchate of Constantinople:
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/deacon.htm#_ftn1

This has two minor differences from the Russian practice ("Command ye" is said by two deacons in the Altar rather than by the subdeacons presenting the candidate, and the vesting does not include presentation with the Deacon's Service Book [with accompanying "Axios!"]), but the Ukrainian Catholic rite has numerous differences: Many of these are significant, especially, there is no presentation of the candidate to the people and clergy so that they can protest the ordination, and there is an entire Prayer during the Laying on of Hands omitted (two prayers, rather than three, invoking the Holy Spirit); also, many of the other difference would make the ceremony look different, such as the dialogs before the Laying on of Hands, and the saying out loud of the Litany.

I'm happy to detail the differences if anyone wished; meanwhile, I'd like to ask if anyone has any notion how this came about. At the time of the Unions, the Ukrainian Church was unambiguously part of the Russian Church, and surely they used the same Bishop's Service Book (Archiejskij Chinovnik)... because these were needed in such small quantities, they were rarely printed (and I recall in the 1970s Bishops from the Moscow Patriarchy traveling to Jordanville to buy them, because that was [and probably still is] the only place in the world where they are still in print in Slavonic).

Also, the Ordination of the Reader is a bit different from the Orthodox rite.

So, how did they end up diverging so?

Photius, Reader

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