www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Combating lust, East vs. West

I'm contemplating on a subject for the past few weeks, its about combating lust. In the West, people have told me to run away from the object of lust. I see the objective here is not to sin. But I've been reading a lot of Fr. Stephen Freeman on how he talks about ontological change. We need to change ontologically, be more like God. Thus the dilemma on lust. If you run away from the object of lust, you did not change ontollogically (correct me if I am wrong) but you just avoided committing sin. But you are still the same lustful person. And if you meet this person again or it could be someone else, you will lust again. So to me you didn't become like God, you just avoided sinning. And reading more from Fr. Stephen, he says that we need to have the love of God in us to love as God's love, and to me in the situation on lust, we should not run away from this person whom we lust for, but instead we should see God in this person. And if we have the love of God in us, we would love this person and not have feelings of lust because we treat the person with true love and respect and we see God in this person, not an object of lust.

Am I off base here? Am I correct in what I have summarized from what I understand about Eastern way of thinking and changing ourselves to become more like God?

The object is to become impassible--that is, to overcome the disordered passions, of which lust is one. There is a story of one of the Desert Fathers--I forget which one--in which the Abba and his disciples come to Alexandria, where they discover a procession near the Serapion, in which a particularly well-known harlot is going to ride by on a horse in her birthday suit (shades of Lady Godiva!). As the woman approaches, the disciples all turn their backs and cover their eyes, but the Abba does not. When the procession has passed, the disciples turn around, embarrassed. The Abba turns to them and says, "Did you not see her? Was she not beautiful?"--the point being that the Abba had progressed to the point where he could look upon the naked beauty of the woman, and not be stirred to lust.

The story is one of more than one Desert Father. The story I read dealt with Abba Nilus/Bishop Nonnus and the actress/courtesan Pelagia of Antioch:

When Pelagia rode naked through Antioch, all the clergy around Abba Nilus hid their faces, but he 'gazed along and intently at her; then turning to the rest he said, "Did not the sight of her great beauty delight you? Verily, it greatly delighted me . . . . " '

In another account, Deacon James writes about Bishop Nonnus' reaction,

Yes, this is how I understand what Fr. Stephen was talking about. It struck me, because as a life long Roman Catholic, I have been told that lust can only be overcome by running away from the object of lust. Of course its true that you may sin no more, but I realized then upon reading Fr. Stephen that the objective is not to sin, but to be partakers in God's life (theosis) and thus we should see God in other people. So if you lustfully looked at one person, you should be able to look at that person lovingly with God's love and see God in that person, not an object of desire.

Fascinating subject, I've wondered about this myself.
Recently I've seen the "running away" as a necessary first step. We need to get out of the sin first.

I've also read/heard it discussed about the body & spirit being intimately combined such that healthy items for one helps the other and likewise unhealthy affects for one affects the other.
Does anyone have a reference for an explanation of this that I can share with my kids?

Of course this teaching of the church is being proved by science now... for instance studies of the brain show how porn is addictive and damaging... not to mention spiritually damaging as well.

True, but that shouldn't be the last step. What I gathered is that this "object of desire", we should see the person for what the person really is, one who is created in the image and likeness of God. The goal is not to completely run away, but lovingly meet the person again shining the love of God in you and seeing God in that other person.

Its a difficult task, one that I don't know how to undertake.

Constantine,

I haven't read Fr Stephen Freeman but I'm assuming that he is teaching to someone who's metanoia is already fairly advanced.

"Avoiding the near occasion of sin" is the surest way to beat temptation. St John Climacus advised his monks repeatedly to do so, for by opening the door for the devil to tempt is a sign of pride.

To slam shut the door of temptation after inviting it in is extremely difficult.

Allow us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Fr Deacon Paul

Agreed. But there are certainly somethings that should always be avoided -- a strip club, hardcore porn, etc

On the other hand, I've heard it said that we can change the way we think of others by reminding ourselves they are also children of God, and also think of them in light of the Blessed virgin Mary, or as a daughter.

I think the point is that the object of lust ceases to become tempting, hence there is no evil to be delivered from.

Perhaps thinking of "fear" rather than "lust" might shed a different light, assuming that fear is of the disordered passions in this context. By continually running from what one is afraid of, potential danger is perhaps averted, but the fear remains. It may be a necessary first step, but the final goal perhaps ought to be overcoming the fear, rather than continually avoiding it.

Very interesting topic.

Very true Dave. This is why we pray for our "enemies", in the process of trying to change others God answers our prayers by making us more loving and understanding.

Maybe this is the answer to my question. If one prays for the person specifically, perhaps the prayer will change oneself to know that the other person is in fact in the image and likeness of God.

“The princes of evil have blinded me with their passions and by their cunningness they have robbed me of the beauty of my youth. What can I do, now that I have lost my purity? I will cry out to Christ, that He might return my beauty to me- and then will the evil ones be ashamed.
My Savior cries out to me, to His disciple: do not despair of they salvation; I will restore thee and forgive thee thy sins. I have found thee and I will not leave thee; for I have redeemed thee with my very own Blood.
Cry out, O sinner, with all your might, and spare not your throat; for your Lord is merciful and loves those who repent. As soon as you return, your Father will come out aforehand to meet you. He will slaughter the fatted calf, clothe you in a fine robe, and rejoice in you.” -St. Ephraim the Syrian

“Sex is not evil; it is a gift from our God. But it can become a hindrance to someone who desires to devote all his strength to a life of prayer…Concerning sex, we must strive for self-control. St. Paul tells us to seek peace and sanctification, without which it is impossible to see the Lord. Let us pursue holiness, then, in order to attain the Kingdom of Heaven.” -St. John Chrysostom

“Only the lifeless are exempt from the battles of lust. We know, then, that the struggle of flesh and the spirit is extremely useful to us..to gain self-control and mastery over our desires.” -St. Cassian the monk

“Concerning your body, and the passions which afflict its members..reverence the honor with which God has dignified the body, and do not reduce it to the vile conditions of sinful lust.” -St. John Chrysostom

“Christians practice self-control and exercise continence, observe monogamy, guard chastity, and wipe out all injustice, destroying sin with its root.” – St. Theophilus of Antioch

“In the sixteenth year of the age of my flesh…, the madness of raging lust exercised its dominion over me (through sexual desire), and my invisible enemy trod me down and seduced me. In my sexual involvements, I drew my shackles along with me, terrified to have them taken off me. What made me a slave to lust was the bait of satisfying and insatiable momentary urge.” -St. Augustine of Hippo

“Living a chaste Christian life is sometimes more difficult than suffering a martyr’s death.” -St. Mark the Ascetic

“Lustful stories and drawings set up market-places for immorality, and establish infamous opportunities for the young to practice every sort of corrupt please.” -Athenagoras (2nd cent. Athenian Christian philosopher)

Alexandr