www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West A "brief" introduction...

Excerpts from a letter I wrote to my Bishop:

My name is Jonathan and I live in Brooklyn, New York.

For the past two and half years, I have participated at The Gregorian Mass. In this time I learned more about my faith and prayerfully deepened my relationship with Our Lord. While I have indeed come along way from whence I first initiated my journey (I am a cradle Catholic.), I have continued to struggle as regards to adopting Roman Ritual spirituality and applying it to my daily life. As hard as I may try, it just doesn't seem to stick with me. Certain folk elements perhaps, but my outlook regarding my spirituality, not so much. Ironically what has maintained my faith (by GOD's grace) is my interest in The Faith's Judaic character. I believe in the past that I have frequented Chabad.org/The Jewish Encyclopedia in the past, more than I have The Catholic Encyclopedia.However irony of ironies, it has actually nurtured my faith as a Catholic,whilst not causing me to question the veracity of The Faith and its dogmas.

But how can this be, how can a Catholic relate better to his faith through a JUDAIC lens ? The truth is, I am still trying to figure that out myself.

In learning more about the history of Judaism from the time of Abraham to the time of our Lord, I've been able to piece together a historical and spiritual synthesis of The Faith I have received. Christianity is not a randomized religion that sprung up in Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, etc., but part of a continuum of GOD's revelation to Abraham and his descendants within The Covenant. The very covenant in which we participate in as fulfilled through the economy of The Incarnation of The Word, Jesus The Christ. As previously stated, I have come to see Jesus and The Faith in light of their initial ethnographic context within The Hebraeo-Judaeo world. This has caused a great deal of conflict between my fellow Catholic and myself, with the famed accusation of my being a "judaizer" (which I am not). I have NEVER advocated that The 613 Mitzvot are necessary for salvation. I merely demonstrate an appreciation for those disciplines/canons of the past, which inform our own praxis, even if under a distinct economy. If that makes me a "judaizer", well I'm in good company as St.Jerome in translating The Tanakh made appeals to midrashim (Judaic commentaries), The Talmud (via the aid of Rabbis who provided for the context, and nuance) and The Masoretic Canon. The fact that I opted to learn Hebrew over Latin doesn't exactly sit well with too many people. Mind you, I learned Modern Hebrew, but I digress. As time went on, I hungered to consume EVERYTHING I could about Judaism. I knew well in my heart that I couldn't bring myself to leave The Church, but I nonetheless felt a pull towards all things Judaic. Not in the aesthetic "Jews for Jesus" or "Messianic Jews" sense, but in a profound manner, which transforms the soul. It was by no means about strapping on tefillin, donning a tallit gadol and reciting The Shema and presto "I'm a Jew and my name is now Yohanan (In my case it would be redundant to change my name anyway, given that both my given name and Chrismation name are Hebrew, but who is splitting hairs.)", but understanding how those sacramentals and prayers transform the individual from within.

I acknowledge that The Church likewise bestows sacramentals that grant sanctifying grace and thus from that point of view, I can further appreciate that The Church is part of that Tradition. However it is not a matter of aesthetic preference, but rather one of approach and the language (not language in the sense of Hebrew vs Latin (However there is something to that as well.)) as regards to philosophical and theological discourse. I may have been born and raised a Roman, but I do not engage through discourses as one. I am at a crossroads seeking direction.I am well aware that every Ritual Church is an equal inheritor of Biblical Judaism and that their discourse of The Faith should be seen as complementary and not contradictory. However as is the case with a dish of food, some people prefer more spice, whereas others prefer less. Nevertheless,the outcome is the same and merely a matter of emphasis on ingredients, without changing it to the point where they are unrecognizable from one another.

I am well aware of the fact that The Roman Rite has what is known as The Association of Hebrew Catholics. Some time ago, I requested information from the aforementioned apostolate and found but a foretaste of what I am seeking. The apostolate has as it's aim an emphasis on converts from Post Temple Rabbinical Judaism to Catholicism. While this is indeed a wonderful thing (praise GOD), it does not have the organic development present within historic communities of Jewry that converted in The Early Days of The Church. Truth be told, The West (Rome in particular,with a few exceptions (ie Iberia)) did not host as high a concentration of Jews in The Diaspora as there were/are in The East. This does not at all detract from Rome's diaspora communities, but facts are facts. Likewise, I do recognize that elements of Jewish Liturgy are clearly present in the structure of The Roman Liturgy. However one has to look for them as emphasis isn't necessarily given to these aspects of the liturgy. On the other hand, a casual glance at Byzantine and Oriental Liturgies reveals them plain as day. From the boy deacons of Ethiopia to the prosphora of Greece to the chancel veils of Syriac Christendom, the traces of The Temple and Jewish life are more readily accessible. Again, this is not a downplaying of The Western Liturgies, but rather how my soul perceives them.

I realize that the above may sound like despair (and perhaps there is a grain of truth to that), but I believe that at best I am being sincere in my endeavour. The notion of my even considering a change in Ritual jurisdiction is viewed as equivalent to apostasy in the eyes of many of my fellow Roman Ritual Catholics. What reservations or prejudices they may have, I do not know and thus cannot comment in that regard. However I do not feel that such feelings should hinder me from seeking out information so as to make an informed decision. I however can say with certainty,that my interests are in those Ritual Churches of Jerusalem and Antioch (Melkites, Maronites,Syriacs (Western in particular, but open to the Eastern Syriac as well) and Mozarabics). I realize that Melkites are Byzantinized/Hellenized Western Syriacs, whereas Maronites and Syriacs are Oriental Christians. However, there exists an overlap between the traditions as well. Furthermore, I aware that The Maronite and Syriac Traditions (Western) while having the same genesis in Ritual, evolved differently. Namely earlier contact with Rome and The Maronites in the era of The Crusades, caused a shift in the evolution of that particular Ritual, for better or for worse.

My interest in Antiochian/Syriac Christianity is in large part due to its history within the Semitic world. In particular the peculiarities of their respective liturgies and praxis and their relationship with early Hebraeo-Christianity (Those groups under St.James The Lesser, First Bishop of Jerusalem.). The discourses employed in their treatises on proto-monasticism (It initially develops amongst The Syriacs.), devotional life provide a wealth of spiritual nourishment that unfortunately is unknown to many Latin and Byzantine Christians. Within these Rituals, we see an alternate evolution of The Faith as preached within the pages of The Gospel. Churches which are iconodulic, but make minimal use (if any) of images (save for The Cross), work from within Jewish exegetical tradition (It is documented that The Syriac Fathers indeed worked through such sources.), celebrate THE Liturgy of Liturgies (The Liturgy of St. James of Jerusalem) in a dialect of Syriac related to the one spoken by Our Lord etc., all speak to a Christendom that could have been, had St.Peter maintained his See at Antioch.

I realize that in many ways the testimony I have provided above, has an air of romanticization and indeed perhaps such is the case. After all, in some way shape or form we are all affected. Nevertheless, it would be foolish to entertain the idea of switching Ritual jurisdictions, without engaging with what it precisely would entail in practice. To do so, would require that I learn how to discourse as an Oriental Catholic Christian, learn Syriac etc.

Mind you, such is not a daunting task as I am slightly familiar with a few of The Syriac Fathers and I have a familiarity with a Semitic tongue (Modern Hebrew). The more looming dilemma is that of community. Aside from the obvious fact that New York does not host a Western Syriac Catholic community (The Maronites being an exception to the rule and even then, they evolved away into a distinct Ritual.), there is also the obvious fact that I do not have the cultural savvy from whence these particular Rituals hail from (Lebanon, Syria, Palestine etc.). Now I do realize,that the more important element of my switching Ritual jurisdictions is to worship and conform to the praxis of that particular Apostolic Church. However keeping in mind the essence of what liturgy is (the work of the people), I begin to wonder how I precisely would figure into parish life in those particular communities. For better or for worse, most Byzantine and Oriental Churches have remained isolated in their membership. I would be a fool to dismiss such a reality. This in turn has caused me to discern and reflect on such a move with a deal more consideration. Where would I, a Catholic raised within a historically Roman/Latin culture find a place within such ecclesial communities ? I recognize that for many of these Christians (within their respective diaspora groups), that churches provide a liaison between their homeland, culture etc. and their new country of residence. Mind you, I do not hold this against them. After all, having been raised in a Puerto Rican household (whilst living in The US), it was ingrained into me very early on, the value of preserving my cultural identity. That being said, it was in no way binding on me that I was to be mono cultural. On the contrary, having a firm foundation that tied me back to a particular cultural identity (Puerto Rico is after all a creolized melting pot of VARIOUS groups.)allowed me to better circumnavigate within and through the cultures of the various diaspora groups (and their descendants) in The US. Nevertheless given my cultural makeup, I do not necessarily believe that I would be readily ingrafted into such a community and its parish life. This by no means is an accusation of the heresy of ethnophyletism necessarily being present within these communities (National Parishes in the Roman Rite are effectively the same thing.),but it is something worth taking into consideration when entertaining a switch in Ritual jurisdiction.

Having cited my interest in The Western Syriac Rite, I also have the dilemma of having no local community of which to observe the liturgical year with in order that I might qualify for a change in canonical enrollment. However, that is not necessarily true given that The Maronite Church is for all intents, and purposes an equal inheritor of The Western Syriac Ritual Tradition(Even if in certain, and particular instances they have opted to drop their own Traditional praxis in favour of Latin liturgical forms. Not that this is a recent phenomenon, but was impressed upon them under The Jesuits who first encountered them. They believed the Maronites to be schismatics, and heretics.). That being said, I on the other hand do have at my disposal The Eastern Syriac Catholics in the Bronx. While they do observe both a liturgical cycle, and praxis with a common origin, they observe a form which developed within a distinct ethnographic context. That is to say, the liturgy of St.Thomas Christians (Eastern Syriacs (Syro Malabar/Malankara)) developed within a distinct cultural, and regional context than that of Western Syriac Christians. But I digress, and thus return my attention to the initial point. While I strictly speaking do not have a Western Syriac Ritual Church at my immediate disposal, I however do have two viable options from which to choose from to fulfill the requirement of observing within the Rite so as to acquaint myself with their liturgical cycle, and praxis (The Maronites being closer by virtue of being a variant of Western Syriac Ritual.).So I again ask, what are my options, and what procedure must I follow considering my unique circumstances ?

Get your head out of the books and your but into a parish to experience the tradition. How can you even contemplate asking for a change of ritual Church when you haven't experienced a Liturgy there let alone established a stable spiritual life in one? Without first doing that your letter looks ridiculous and you stand zero chance of being taken seriously by a bishop.

Hello!

This may be something of a "rich man's problem," in the sense that you have tremendous liturgical diversity available to you in New York City. Few people have the dizzying amount of options that you do. In most places, if you have *one* Eastern church, you're blessed.

I agree with Fr. Deacon ... attend the liturgies. Receptively, I may add.

If you can't "grow where you're planted," you could move, I suppose. But there are many awesome churches down there.

I understand the desire for perfection. I myself dream of a "Sarum Greek Catholic Church" that seamlessly blends pre-Reformation English Catholicism and Greek Catholicism, uses Elizabethan English and Koine Greek as the liturgical languages, is immensely popular yet manages to avoid Americanization, and is true to its traditions but no one has a tizzy if a Latin hymn is used here and there.

So clearly this gloriously beautiful creature exists only in my head. But I suppose we need to work out our salvation with what we have!

God bless your search,

Booth
Infrequent poster

I concur! Experience the faith traditions that are within your reach. I do believe from everything that you have stated that you would likely feel more at home in an Eastern/Oriental Catholic tradition. As Lent is approaching, you have an excellent opportunity for immersion. The weekday observances of the Lenten season are replete with Old Testament reference and usage, expressing the continuity of faith and the realization of the original covenant in the new.

Fr. Deacon's advice is sound on multiple counts. Even if you were to plead for a canonical transfer to another Rite, you would be required by both sides to have participated in worship for an appreciable time, so as to ensure with some certainty that your request is well considered.

May you find peace and fulfillment within the Catholic Church!

I appreciate everyone's advice concerning my assisting at the intended Ritual Church for a period of time, prior to making any decision. However Booth hit the nail right on the head. In switching canonical enrollment, how much of that particular Ritual would I truly experience, if say the Church is thoroughly Latinized, but has an aesthetic veneer of being from within that Liturgical tradition ?

For instance, I would have absolutely NO problem assisting with Maronites, given that they are a Western Syriac Ritual Church. However, what if the local community is essentially Latin, with just some minor hints of being from within The Syriac Tradition ? Mind you, I'm speaking to extremes here, but I guess what I am referring to relates more to consistency between Churches within a Rite. What would be the point of taking upon The Syriac/Maronite title, to essentially observe as a Roman ? Oriental, and Byzantine Churches within The American Diaspora haven't always been treated so kindly in so far as liturgical praxis.

I've attended Liturgy with Coptics (I am so very grateful that NY has a Coptic Catholic community.), and Melkites. My interest essentially rests within the tradition of Antioch, particularly that of The West. I experienced, but a foretaste of that amongst The Melkites (I've attended Liturgy with them a few times.), but through a Byzantine lens. That is essentially what lead me to learn more about the Antiochian Tradition. Are there any Antiochian Christians here that might be able to aid me in so far as what to expect from within that Tradition ? Maronite or other ? How receptive are most communities of Oriental, and Byzantine Catholics to those from outside of the Church's geographic origins ? While I haven't exactly had it so difficult amongst The Melkites I've worshipped with, I do remember a fellow who converted through The Melkites (IIRC) being treated like an outcast in the community he converted through.

Out of curiosity's sake, what is it like for Oriental, and Byzantine Catholics with no local community from within their Rite, forced to observe within The Roman Rite ? How do they adapt in relation to observance of baptism for children, chrismation, etc. ?

Thank you !

But yes, that is exactly what I desire to experience.

Jonathon,

for goodness sake stop saying 'what would it be like...... '

Get out there and go and look for a Church - any Church, Eastern or Western , and go with any open mind and listen to what is said. Visit each Church for a few weeks and then you may have some sort of idea what it's about . Talk to the people there , get to know them and how they think and feel about things.

You are not a member of what can be termed [ I've heard this said ] the Liturgical Police !

I've managed to be accepted into a Church Community , whose language I cannot as yet speak , I love the Liturgy , the praxis , the very deep spirituality in everything. Yes , even so , some things are not done 100% correctly - but hey I'm not a priest and they have come through incredible suffering to be where they are. Acceptance takes time and till you are accepted you are an outsider looking in and one.

Go and see and learn from the community

<div style="display:none">
</div>

I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the advice, but I think I should clarify what I mean.

Consider this being a Maronite Liturgy:

and how it compares with one in say, Lebanon.

The very SAME Tradition, yet worlds apart in form. Why should that even be so within the same Ritual Tradition ?

Shouldn't it reflect something akin to this (Even if slightly Latinized.), given that they share a common Ritual origin ? :

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9EA7AC2A7C99B55C

This is the Oriental Orthodox Liturgy from whence both draw their genesis (The Maronite Liturgy stems forth from The Eastern Iraqi form.): http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF02983BEC7FBB6F8

Mind you, I understand that no liturgy can ever truly be ideal, and performed by every demand made via the rubrics. I am human, I understand that. However, what does it mean to be a Byzantine, or Oriental Catholic in union with Rome, (Who have as a duty to witness to their Orthodox sister Churches.) if it seems to be taboo to allow for the Liturgy (and those extra-liturgical elements (devotions etc.)) to be celebrated from within the continuity of that very Tradition ? I do not know if a TRL (Traditional Roman Liturgy) or NO has ever been celebrated in Arabic/Aramaic, but how different would it truly be from a thoroughly Latinized Church within The Antiochian/Melkite, and Maronite Tradition ? True, the sacrifice is the same regardless, but what of the equally valid Apostolic Tradition that informs the ritual of those Churches (I am making provision for cross pollination and organic development.) ?

Mind you, perhaps I am being too idealistic in my quest, but alas, who isn't in seeking to render just tribute to GOD ?

Lastly, I am curious as to the "dispensation" that Eastern (Not sure if it is solely limited to Byzantine Catholics.) Catholics have, of being able to assist at Orthodox Divine Liturgies. Does this fulfil their Sunday obligation ? Are they able to receive The Eucharist (assuming The Priest allows it) ? Do they pray through The Liturgy ?

Assuming the above is true, would that be an option for me,if solely to immerse myself within the Tradition for the time being ? Namely to become acquainted with an "undisturbed" form of The Liturgy. Mind you, I'd still seek to observe at a validly offered Mass on Sundays, and HDO as is required of me as a Roman Catholic .After all, switching canonical enrollment essentially dictates that I observe that which I am bound to currently (Roman), and that which I seek to be bound to in the future. You'd think a dispensation would be granted in the mean time. I realize that it wouldn't solve the dilemma of Parish life, but I think having a firm foundation within the tradition, would supercede that. While parish life is wonderful, it would be of no value if I did not at most make the attempt to immerse myself intimately within the tradition first.

I forgot to add the following. Given the cited "dispensation", how likely would it be that it be granted in relation to a "non-Chalcedonian (Recent ecumenical talks between The Coptics, and Rome have revealed it is a matter of wording (Apparently we believe the same thing, but word the teaching differently. After all, all councils are an exercise in language as my friend put it yesterday, and no language can ever truly codify those mysteries.), so I'd imagine the same would be true in relation to The Syriacs. Just thinking out loud here is all.

Would really appreciate the input of those who have switched canonical enrollment as well.

Jonathan,

The New York area has 5 Malankara Syriac Catholic Churches which are generally much less latinized than the Maronites or Syriacs.

The new Exarch is also based in Long Island, why not try to attend an English Liturgy? The Syriac Orthodox Malankara Archdiocese and Malankara Orthodox also have bishops based in New York.

Here are a list of Malankara Syriac Catholic parishes in the NY area:

006 Long Island, NY (Est. 1993)
St. John Chrysostom SMCC
115 Greenwich Street
Hempstead, NY 11550
Vicar:Nedumankuzhiyil Fr. Joseph

007 New Jersey, NJ (Est. 1996)
St. Thomas SMCC
287 Hamilton Street,
Rahway, NJ 07065
Vicar: Kochery Msgr. Peter
Fr. Jacob John (Asst.)

008 New Rochelle, NY (Est. 1984)
St. Mary’s SMCC
148 Main Street
New Rochelle, NY 10801
Vicar: Mangalath Fr. Augustine

009 Philadelphia, PA (Est. 1985)
St. Jude SMCC
244 West Cheltenham Avenue
Philadelphia, PA 19126
Vicar: Rev. Fr. Thomas Malayil

010 Queens, NY (Est. 1998)
St. Basil SMCC
7200 Douglaston Parkway
Douglaston, NY 11362

011 Rockland, NY (Est. 2002)
St. Peter’s SMCC
333 Sneden Place W.
West Spring Valley, NY 10977
Vicar: Mankulam Fr. Joy

Thank you for the cited parishes, but my question becomes, how close are these to the Tradition I seek entry into (The Western Syriac Tradition) ? Is it merely a few minor differences here, and there, or is liturgical praxis totally different ?

See, in so far as Oriental Orthodox Churches (Western Syriacs), I have this particular community at my disposal:



What confuses me however, is that they seem to be celebrating First Eucharist in the manner of Latin Christians. How common is this ?

I found a link to a few photos of the community. I must say, a curious community indeed.

http://www.syrianorthodoxchurch.org/news/2010/11/24/ordination-of-deacons-in-brooklyn-new-york

Does anyone know why the deacons are beneath his cope/mantle (I forgot the Syriac term for it...) ?

I Googled the cited address of 335 91st Street
Brooklyn, New York 11209, but it appears to be a house (?), so I'm not sure what to make of that.

This is a little disjointed, apologies, hopefully it can still be useful. I live in NYC and am involved in both Latin (both TLM and NO) and Eastern rite communities here (and have a longstanding interest in Judaism) and would be willing to talk to you off forum about these issues if you like. You can PM me if your PMing is enabled or find my e-mail via my profile.

That's all pretty much moot at the level you're at. To go to church with the churches you have.Of course thay have. There are Roman Catholics in many countries in the Middle East who celebrate the Novus Ordo liturgy in Arabic.There are still huge differences between even the most Latinized Eastern liturgies and the Roman rite.It's more important to worship God than to hold up high external ideals perfectly... This is, of course, among the lessons of the prayer of the publican [biblegateway.com].This raises a lot of very complicated questions (some of them without clear resolutions). But Catholics of all rites can licitly assist at Orthodox liturgies. The allowances to receive Communion are limited and almost never applicable in New York City. But this seems a distraction from your fundamental problem.(Apologies for walking somewhat close to the line for the forum here.) I often encourage Catholics to visit Orthodox Churches (and even more so, Eastern Catholic Churches). But, there are some people I don't encourage to do so, those I suspect may be in danger of falling away from the Catholic communion. In your search for ritual "authenticity" I'd put you in that category.

Dipping into Eastern liturgy/theology/spirtuality may cause a bit of initial discomfort or dislocation, but you seem to be experiencing intense anxiety and upheaval over this. I'm not sure entirely why. Honestly, it makes me wonder about whether there's something else going on at the root here that's not related to East/West. Apologies that that is a rather personal thing to put out there on the forum.


You fulfill your Roman Catholic obligation by attending Mass in any Catholic rite. Basically, there is no issue with attending a Byzantine rite or Maronite rite parish in the short to medium term. No obligation you're not fulfilling. You're not required to also go to Roman Catholic services if you're attending services at a Church in union with Rome. (You would have to attend services somewhere on Roman rite days of obligation if there was no Eastern liturgy to attend, for instance, if it was not a day of obligation for them.)


Parish life is not something separate from the tradition. And liturgy is not separate from parish life.

I think it would be useful if you gave us a little information about your background. You have a background in Modern Hebrew it seems from your blog? Are you a convert to Roman Catholicism?

You seemed very concerned about the Jewish elements in Catholic and Orthodox liturgy at the beginning of the thread. I'd want to add that I think there are Jewish elements in Roman rite liturgy that I think you're missing: the use of unleavened bread, some of the emphasis of the theology of sacrifice in the liturgy, the music (Gregorian chant is more closely related to the synagogue music of Jesus's day, as I understand it, than Byzantine music is, for example, which relies more on Greek forms).

The wisest thing, probably, for you (and for all of us) is not to judge our own cases, but to place ourselves under obedience to a spiritual father and to follow his direction.

Try Mar Mari Orthodox Church of the East on Buenavista Ave. in Yonkers. Beautiful East Syriac Liturgy. Warmly hospitable people. Welcoming priest and khouriyeh. They admit to the Table of the Lord all the faithful of the Apostolic Churches. I believe you can make a case for Catholics to receive there based on the mutual accommodation between the Assyrian Orthodox and Chaldean Catholics. The Qurbana Raza is served in Syriac but there are bilingual texts available. The priest and faithful are from Iran. Let me know if this works for you.

The quoting came to be a bit much, and thus I'm doing it "old school" as I would rather not tinker with coding today. :)

@JBenedict:

"This is a little disjointed, apologies, hopefully it can still be useful. I live in NYC and am involved in both Latin (both TLM and NO) and Eastern rite communities here (and have a longstanding interest in Judaism) and would be willing to talk to you off forum about these issues if you like. You can PM me if your PMing is enabled or find my e-mail via my profile."

No problem, I would actually appreciate that a lot.

"That's all pretty much moot at the level you're at. To go to church with the churches you have."

Then how does one obtain a proper formation from within the Tradition itself ? As someone who is all to familiar with Traditionalist Roman Catholics, the common adage is "lex orandi, lex credendi". I want to pray/believe as a Catholic, but with the nuance, and discourse of The Syriac Tradition. Again, I'm not solely going for a smells, and bells approach, but as stated for full immersion within the Tradition. As someone who is acquainted with The TRL, and NO, I think you can understand where I am coming from in this regard.

"Of course thay have. There are Roman Catholics in many countries in the Middle East who celebrate the Novus Ordo liturgy in Arabic."

"There are still huge differences between even the most Latinized Eastern liturgies and the Roman rite."

I realize that, but in so far as theological discourses are concerned for expressing The Faith, how does it reflect the continuity of the Patristic Tradition outside of Liturgy ? That is essentially what I am speaking to. Is being Catholic, and discoursing via the Patristic Tradition in conflict ?

"It's more important to worship God than to hold up high external ideals perfectly... This is, of course, among the lessons of the [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18%3A9-14&version=NIV]prayer of the publican[/url]."

But I never cited that I saw myself as greater than anyone. The lesson cited their is one of humility in relation to the intent, and tone of one's prayer. I am not seeking a Church where a Liturgy is offered after every rubric cited within the text, but one that will provide me with a firm foundation within the Tradition of that Church. Some people glean more from a TRL, than they do a DL, and vice versa. I am fine with the liturgical preferences of individuals, but should not my desire to honour that Tradition be equally valid ? Consider this, if I were a Traditionally inclined Roman Rite Catholic, who didn't have access to a local TRL whose spirituality I sought to conform to, why is it then that every manner of apologia would be offered in that scenario ?

Pardon my citing The TRL in this instance, but in truth, isn't it essentially the same ? Namely an individual seeking to live as a Traditional Roman Catholic, and observe as did their fathers (whether physical or by faith). The only difference in this case is my seeking to do so within The Syriac Tradition.

"This raises a lot of very complicated questions (some of them without clear resolutions). But Catholics of all rites can licitly assist at Orthodox liturgies. The allowances to receive Communion are limited and almost never applicable in New York City. But this seems a distraction from your fundamental problem."

How so ?

"(Apologies for walking somewhat close to the line for the forum here.) I often encourage Catholics to visit Orthodox Churches (and even more so, Eastern Catholic Churches). But, there are some people I don't encourage to do so, those I suspect may be in danger of falling away from the Catholic communion. In your search for ritual "authenticity" I'd put you in that category."

By I all means I welcome the honesty.

But in like manner, I ask for a qualification of your statements in relation to your own participation, and assistance at TRLs. How is that any different ? That I seek to acquaint myself within a distinct Ritual Tradition, and profess my beliefs through that Tradition's unique Ritual/theological heritage is a danger to my faith ? Isn't that the same argument employed against de-Latinizing Churches, and in favour of Latinizing them ? Haven't Popes pre, and post VII essentially called for Eastern Catholic Churches to stand as witnesses to their Orthodox sister Churches, by reflecting Catholic/Orthodox beliefs, but from within their own Tradition ?

"Dipping into Eastern liturgy/theology/spirtuality may cause a bit of initial discomfort or dislocation, but you seem to be experiencing intense anxiety and upheaval over this. I'm not sure entirely why. Honestly, it makes me wonder about whether there's something else going on at the root here that's not related to East/West. Apologies that that is a rather personal thing to put out there on the forum."

But that is the thing, I am fine with any "discomfort" that may come along. I am actually seeking to embrace it (Hence my posting here so as to hopefully get better acquainted with the Tradition, and praxis.), but to do so I have to engage honestly through the process I am to undertake.


"You fulfill your Roman Catholic obligation by attending Mass in any Catholic rite. Basically, there is no issue with attending a Byzantine rite or Maronite rite parish in the short to medium term. No obligation you're not fulfilling. You're not required to also go to Roman Catholic services if you're attending services at a Church in union with Rome. (You would have to attend services somewhere on Roman rite days of obligation if there was no Eastern liturgy to attend, for instance, if it was not a day of obligation for them.)"

But I'm not referring to that though. What I stated was that if I were to opt to assist at a Syriac Orthodox Church, I would obviously attend a validly offered Liturgy on Sundays, and those HDO that I am bound to as a Catholic of The Roman Rite. The dispensation I was speaking to was distinct. Namely in that a person who is seeking a change in canonical enrollment, I would still be bound to fulfil that which is required of me as a Roman Rite Catholic (HDO, periods of fast/abstinence etc.), alongside those HDO, periods of fast/abstinence etc. that are particular to the Church of transfer. That is what I was referring to. Namely that perhaps a dispensation should be granted to those seeking said change, so that they not juggle between observances. Not that extra periods of fast/abstinence, and extra days at Liturgy aren't beneficial to the soul (They indeed are.), but that it keeps the individual tied to two distinct forms with different requirements in so far as observance is concerned. A test of resolve perhaps, but it is what it is.

"Parish life is not something separate from the tradition. And liturgy is not separate from parish life."

Parish life is an extension of "lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi". However while I am absolutely no fan of a sole lived ecclesiology, it would be equally erroneous on my part to equate the parish community with Liturgical practice. That has unfortunately lead to the heresy that is ethnophyletism (in the liturgical context). However in this case, not ethnophyletism, but rather parochiocentrism (I don't think that is an actual term, but for the purposes of this response, it works.) if I placed too much emphasis on parish life. Placing too much emphasis on either, would be to throw the baby out with the bath water.

"I think it would be useful if you gave us a little information about your background. You have a background in Modern Hebrew it seems from your blog? Are you a convert to Roman Catholicism?"

I provided a bit of my background in the initial post. I am a cradle Catholic, raised Roman, who assisted at the Tridentine form for a period of two, and a half years. If parish life were to be the sole determining factor, that reflected the Liturgy, well...yeah.

"You seemed very concerned about the Jewish elements in Catholic and Orthodox liturgy at the beginning of the thread. I'd want to add that I think there are Jewish elements in Roman rite liturgy that I think you're missing: the use of unleavened bread, some of the emphasis of the theology of sacrifice in the liturgy, the music (Gregorian chant is more closely related to the synagogue music of Jesus's day, as I understand it, than Byzantine music is, for example, which relies more on Greek forms)."

I am aware of those elements (Unleavened hosts = Korban toda etc.), however different Church Traditions reflect a distinct emphasis from the environment in which they developed in. The Church in Jerusalem developed under St.James The Lesser, and reflects a more Hebraic Tradition given the environment it found itself in. All Churches reflect that, as do they reflect a common origin within The Eucharist, I am not arguing against that, rather stating that distinct emphasis, and discourses from the various Apostolic Traditions communicate the same Truth, in different ways.

As to chant forms, I would say one would have to look to the various cantorial Traditions from within the synagogues of the various Jews in The Diaspora. The chant of The Mozarabic Ritual (At one point it should become a sui iuris, along with The Anglican Ordinariate...) is derived from The Jews of Hispania (Sepharad in Hebrew). It would thus follow that the cantorial tradition from Jerusalem, and Antioch would follow from the tradition of those Jews nearest them.

"The wisest thing, probably, for you (and for all of us) is not to judge our own cases, but to place ourselves under obedience to a spiritual father and to follow his direction."

I understand that, but I also recognize that not every Latin priest is keen on non Roman Ritual Churches. Most equate it as a passing fancy, or the equivalent of schism. In truth, I would imagine that many perceive it to be saying that The Roman Rite has somehow failed, and is deficient. After all, anyone who has attended say a TRL couldn't possibly desire something like say, The DL. That may not be the opinion of all, but I have come across Traditionalists who are indeed of that school of thought. Never once does it register that perhaps an individual may legitimately have a calling to another Ritual Church/Tradition, whilst bearing no ill will to the Rite/Church they are changing from.