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Dear Alex:


No, we are not "2 Latin birds of a feather!"

The ADMIN and I are just 2 Christian birds, of the Latin and Byzantine species, who like to feather together.

Amado

Dear David:

I respectfully disagree with your blanket assertion that in (English-speaking) North America, the primary liturgical lanaguage of every parish should be English.

The primary litgurgical lanaguage of any parish anywhere, regardless of Rite, should be the lanaguage of its parishionders.

If a Latin Rite parish in Spanish Harlem had four Spanish Masses and not a single English Mass, would you be equally as critical?

Your point about the UGCC parishes in Rochester being four separate communities based upon their having multiple liturgies is, IMHO, wholly off the topic. The point is that these folks still want to be a part of the Ukrainian church and a part of the Church headed by the Kyivan Patriarch.

As much as we would like to have enough priests and parishes to cover everyone, we don't. So we sacrifice the "one holy table, one day, one liturgy" rule on Sundays. It's not ideal, but we do what we can.

You also admit that the English-language Liturgies are not well attended. Case and point, your honor.

Respectfully submitted,

kl

Lauro,

I appreciate your post. As the saying goes, �think big�. Imagine the day when about 50 million of Brazil�s 175 million people join your Church and you have your own patriarch in Bras�lia. You would outnumber Ukrainian Catholics in Ukraine! That is the goal! To invite 50 million unchurched Brasilians to become Byzantine Catholic! I can envision a Byzantine Catholic Church in Brazil that gives back to the universal Church wonderful gifts of spirituality, liturgical chant and a unique Brazilian way of being Byzantine. That is what we must work towards.

Admin

PS: When Alex converts the ~10 million unchurched people in Canada to Byzantine Christianity we can make him Patriarch of Ottawa.

Dear Administrator,

Well, my wife tells me I'm the most entertaining when I am stimulating . . . No disagreement there either . . .

I think I'm beginning to understand you much better though.

When all is said and done, this whole matter is one of pastoral praxis, moreso than ecclesial.

And by that I mean "if da people want it, da people are gonna get it."

Convince them? I'm not about to, even if I was totally convinced of your position - and I'm not, sorry!

Why?

Tomorrow I go to attend my nieces' Ukrainian school graduation.

It will be a gala affair at a post Toronto hotel.

In attendance will be not only Ukie community and Consular types, but also the Deputy Premier of Ontario who will be on hand to congratulate the graduands for their sacrifices in learning about their heritage etc.

Up here, there's no hint of "da etnick leenguage" disappearing.

If anything, ethnic cultures are becoming more closely aligned with the mainstream - its' "chic" to be ethnic, to have an ethnic name, to participate in ethnic events etc.

And "multiculturalism" means having your own cultural institutions, including churches.

I guess it's just my experience as a Ukrainian Canadian that sends shivers down my spine when I hear you talk of a single ecclesial construct.

Most of the Eastern European groups are built on a cultural identity that is informed by an awareness of years of national oppression and lack of "one's own" institutions.

What you want for their future as religious communities simply runs against the grain of that perception.

As for the "preaching of the Gospel" - that is an important consideration.

But we share the Gospel and live it within the context of our own communities.

Sorry but that is how most of Orthodoxy has been organized for centuries.

And I hope you are not going to say that Catholicism has been more "universal."

Its missionaries have brought Western European civilization to other peoples along with the Gospel.

Our mission as, say, the UGCC is to evangelize our own people, the unchurched in Ukraine that Rome and Protestants want to "bring over" to their churches.

We need to get back on our feet after years of communist oppression etc.

That is mission enough!

The Gospel is preached in North America - people know it well.

They just don't want to obey it.

Our existence isn't tied up with our ability to preach the Gospel.

We'd be preaching to the converted.

Our existence is tied up with living the Gospel in our respective Particular Churches so as to be a light to the world.

I would hope that my example and words would help people become interested in the Church.

I have, as you know, helped people into both the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches - that was up to them in any event.

But I wouldn't help anyone into my Ukrainian Church unless they saw Ukrainian culture as relevant to their spirituality.

I have even warned one or two against joining a Ukrainian Church - and they didn't listen and are now in other jurisdictions.

I don't see what's wrong with that. The Ukrainian Church is vibrant and it is growing, here and beyond.

I know people are "turned on" by Kyivan Christianity.

But they would probably be more spiritually "at home" in another Eastern or Latin Church, in Orthodoxy or even in a Western Rite Orthodox parish.

I don't count our success in terms of the number of people I've brought into the UGCC.

The UGCC isn't all the "Church" that there is.

But the UGCC has a lot of work to do in terms of outreach to people - and Ukrainian culture and identity has a lot to do with its success.

Do what you will, Sir.

We don't ask you to understand us.

We ask you to leave us alone to do what God ordained us to do!

Have a great weekend, Esteemed Administrator!

(Am I sizzling today or what?)

Alex

Dear Administrator,

I'm not bragging, but I've got 67 converts under my belt.

I let them come up for air, once in a while . . .

A married Patriarch?

I guess I'd have to join a branch of an "EXTRA-vagante" group for that one. . .

Alex

Amando,

Thanks for your comments.

From what I have read the often-quoted numbers of 3 to 6 million Muslims in America are not accurate. The 2000 census appears to support only a claim of about 1 million. Also, the idea that Islam is the fastest growing religion in America is apparently extremely anecdotal and does not have any support. There is evidence that the inflated numbers are part of a campaign financed by Saudi Arabia to make Islam appear to be a mainstream American religion. But that is another discussion!

--

Alex,

I disagree. The comparison is valid. The Particular Byzantine Church of North America and the future Particular Byzantine Church of Brazil can exist right alongside of the Kyivan and Latin Particular Churches. The differences between the cultures of the Ruthenian, Romanian and Ukrainian Particular Churches, for example, are less than the differences in the cultures in the Polish and Italians who came to North America and made it their home. There is no reason not to create a Particular Byzantine Church of North America that embraces the unique customs and traditions of all other Byzantines.

Admin

Dear Amigo Amado,

Separate though you are, you seem to be associated with similar nesting practices . . ."

A good weekend to you, Big Guy!

Mabuhay Ang Filipinas!

Magandang Gabi!

Alex

Dear Administrator

Well, if you think you can pull it off, go for it!

Kyivan Christianity is an entity unto itself that developed over 1,000 years.

Your plan would put us back with the Byzantine emperors.

The fact is, and it is one you won't admit, but I can't help that, Ukies want to belong to a Ukie Church.

If you want me to convince them otherwise, I'm not going to.

And culture is more than about perogies and the vestigial remnants of immigrants from a peasant tradition.

What you propose will only lead to the creation of another Eastern Church group among many already.

Again, my Kyivan spirituality is something I refuse to submerge in a pan-Byzantine project.

The "Byzantine tradition" does not exist as such, but only in its Particular developments among the various Churches.

I don't intend to end on a negative note.

So I'll just say I hope you'll change your views over time

A great weekend - and please try not to upset any more Ukies with your ideas, Pane!

Alex

Dear Admin:

If I heard that someone at V&O's was organizing a square dance, not a problem. Still I think they would get a better turn out if it was a Tango night.

With regard to his Betitude's comments, I in no way meant to suggest that he said to put our cultural identity before our faith. Still, he sees his flock in Ukraine as "spiritually wounded" and stated that we were specially called to assist in the healing that was going on there today.

If those of us in North American who still feel the connection to Ukraine do not help it, who will?

Anyway, I digress. Your basic premise seems to be that the Byzantine Rite is doomed in North American if we do not shed our "ethnic shackles." Your everyday WASP will not find a home where the remainder of the parish is homogeneously Ukrainian, Ruthenian, whatever.

But if the question is jursidictional, how will having a Patriarch of Pittsburgh help John Doe American find a home in such parishes?

They will still be predominantly what they were before - a mostly ethnic conclave.

And if you force cultural identity out, people will do what they have done in the past, go off and create their own parishes that reflect who they want to be.

So, as I believe Alex said, any attempt at cultural cleansing can only lead to more divisions within the Churches.

Yours,

kl

Amando,

Thanks for your comments.

From what I have read the often-quoted numbers of 3 to 6 million Muslims in America are not accurate. The 2000 census appears to support only a claim of about 1 million. Also, the idea that Islam is the fastest growing religion in America is apparently extremely anecdotal and does not have any support. There is evidence that the inflated numbers are part of a campaign financed by Saudi Arabia to make Islam appear to be a mainstream American religion. But that is another discussion!

--

Alex,

I disagree. The comparison is valid. The Particular Byzantine Church of North America and the future Particular Byzantine Church of Brazil can exist right alongside of the Kyivan and Latin Particular Churches. The differences between the cultures of the Ruthenian, Romanian and Ukrainian Particular Churches, for example, are less than the differences in the cultures in the Polish and Italians who came to North America and made it their home. There is no reason not to create a Particular Byzantine Church of North America that embraces the unique customs and traditions of all other Byzantines.

Admin

Alex,

Thank you for your posts. I do understand that many Ukrainians (and Ruthenians) prefer to belong to an ethnic Church. I also understand that most people in our Churches reject my position. Nevertheless, I believe that we must evangelize North America. The Gospel commands us to evangelize and if we do not evangelize we really have no right to exist. If we do not evangelize soon we will not exist.

Here in America over the last 50 years the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches have each lost about 80% of their members and will each loose another 80% over the next few decades. If things stay on their present course the Byzantine-Ruthenian and Byzantine-Ukrainian Churches will each have about 10,000-12,000 people in 20 years. Most will be of less than half ethnic stock because of intermarriage with other Americans. Will it make sense for them to continue to exist as parallel Churches? I don�t think so. I believe that the smart thing to do is to start preparing for an eventual merging of all ethnic Byzantine Catholic Churches into a single ecclesial structure. It is probably the only way for our Church to survive and it is certainly the only way we can effectively pool our resources to evangelize.

Maybe. Ukrainians, Ruthenians and other oppressed Eastern Christians have chosen to come to North America and to live here. We must teach them that being Christian includes the imperative to invite our neighbors to embrace Christ. Since we live in North America we must share our unique and wonderful Byzantine Christian Life with anyone in North America who wishes to embrace it and must do so in a way that does not force ethnic culture upon them. This is a difficult task but it is the primary Gospel command.

As to the preaching of the Gospel, it is not enough just to preach it within the context of your own communities. Your mission is not to evangelize only Ukrainians. To believe this is to believe something false. Ukrainian Catholics in Canada have the responsibility to witness the Gospel to all of Canada and must do this in a context all Canadians can understand. I realize that Orthodoxy has not been very good at evangelizing but one must acknowledge that most of the Orthodox world has been under authoritarian governments hostile to Christianity (Islam in the Middle East and Communism in the Soviet Empire). I have no doubt that Orthodoxy will recover its evangelical zeal. One cannot use the historic example of a Church persecuted to justify not evangelizing today. And, yes, to force Canada to become Ukrainian in order to become Byzantine Catholic would be just as wrong as when the Roman Catholics forced Western European culture onto those who accepted the Gospel.

How many Canadians has the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Canada won for Christ? That is the only measure of success that matters. God has ordained you to witness Jesus Christ to all of Canada. To reduce this responsibility to a witness to a particular ethnic culture is a cop out. I know that they are strong words but they are true words.

Yes, I propose that those of us Byzantine Catholics choosing to live and build our homes here in North America begin to build upon our Kyivan, Melkite and other Byzantine spirituality a spirituality that can speak to North Americans and through which we can warmly welcome the peoples of the entire North American continent. It is not a matter of submerging. It is a matter of building. Kyivan spirituality will continue to mature and change in the European context. As a Canadian of Ukrainian ethnicity who chooses not to live in Ukraine you will not be part of the ongoing evolution of Kyivan spirituality. Kyivan spirituality took Greek spirituality and made it is own. Canadians will take that same Kyivan and other Byzantine spiritualities and continue to grow it to serve their needs as led by Christ.

Eventually, Byzantine North Americans will build upon the foundation of Kyivan, Greek, Melkite and other Byzantine spiritualities to create something uniquely Byzantine and North American. This is good. We will become a Particular Church as the others are now.

--

KL,

A Tango night? I think I�ll pass. Unless the beer is cold and there is pizza.

Thank you for the clarification of his Beatitude�s comments. I do agree that all of us have a responsibility to assist the Churches in Europe to recover. I am simply stating that that our responsibility to help the Church in Europe does not cancel out our responsibility as Americans to witness Christ to America.

You appear to miss my basic premise. I have not explained it well. I am not suggesting that parishes �shed �ethnic shackles��. I am suggesting that they make ethnicity subservient to the Gospel and welcome others who do not share the original ethnicity of the founders of the parish.

How does a Patriarch help John Doe American find a home in our parishes?

First, a Patriarch of Washington, DC, and a united Byzantine Church of all ethnicities sends the message to �our people� that we are here in America to stay and that we must begin to seriously consider our future here.

Second, a united autocephalous Church sends the message that we can and will build upon our inheritance from our spiritual ancestors in Europe and the Middle East.

Third, a united Church sends the message to John Doe American that oneness in Christ and working together to witness Christ is more important to us than our ethnic identities.

As our people realize that we have a future here as Byzantine Catholic Americans and not just as Slavic or Arabic Americans they will become more open to people who walk through the doors of their parishes. After awhile they will say �hello� to these people and learn to share the Christian Faith without the need to also share their personal ethnicity. [Keep in mind that a potential WASP, Asian, Hispanic or African American is just as proud of their individual ethnicity as we Slavs are of our own Slavic ethnicities.] Then, as we become less threatened by the presence of those who do not share our ethnicity, we will become more and more capable of telling others about Jesus Christ. It is at this point when we will become powerful witnesses of the Gospel and of our Byzantine Faith Tradition.

It is not a matter of forcing out cultural identity, one that will die anyway. It is a matter of welcoming people who do not share our cultural identities and sharing with them our life in Christ.

Many of our parishes are located in neighborhoods that are now less than safe. I know of several parishes that are in neighborhoods that have changed from Slavic to African-American over the last generation. Can you imagine how wonderful it would be to have a church filled with Byzantine Catholic African-Americans singing a Saturday Vespers or a Sunday morning Divine Liturgy in an entirely new chant? A parish that is yoked to the new parish in the suburbs built in the 1990s that maintains Ukrainian or Ruthenian chant? Or a new parish a small town in Kentucky or Alabama where the biggest church in town is the Byzantine Catholic one that has church suppers consisting of all kinds of foods served with grits? We have the ability to give them that gift. We only need to choose to give it.

Admin

I am a new comer to this forum and as such a word of introduction may be in order. I am a Ukrainian Catholic (one of those odd fourth or fifth Generation ones)whose family showed up in eastern Pennsylvania in the 1880's. I have been watching this forum for a while and have been especially interested in the conversations that take place here.

As a Ukrainian Catholic the idea of being under a Patriarch is very comforting His Beatitude cares deeply for his children even the ones sundered from the old country by oceans and linguistics barriers. I am Ukrainian the fact that my capacity to speak the language is practically non existent does not diminish that fact. My great grand father and grandfather both spoke an odd mountain dialect that as I understand it does not exist anymore. Those among the posters of this forum who claim that a completly English pan Byzantine Church is the ideal are quite possibly delusional. If that is what you are looking for in a Church then the Byzantine Catholic Church or maybe the OCA is your bus please be kind enough to remain on it until it reaches whatever destination it may take you to. The beauty of a multiplicity of particular Churches is exactly that we can follow different paths supported by various traditions in our pursuit of Heaven.

My particular path entails smiling at those fortunate enough to have learned Ukrainian in their homes and politely say " Ya disniyu Ukrainska mola". And honestly if they speak english then they respond in english. There is your "language barrier" it is down. (so much for that) My parish at home uses english and Church Slavonic but I certainly do not expect that to be forced on other parishes and on the same token I don't expect to be told to use Ukrainian in my parish. It is all acceptable in the eyes of God and who am I to tell someone the language they have prayed in for longer than I have been alive has no place in the Church? Canada, Brazil, and Ukraine all take their own personal spin on the tradition that they have inherited and they are welcome to it. The point is that we are all Ukrainians or at least all have ancestry from the region now known as Ukraine and that gives us a common ground that I simply have not experienced in the Byzantine Church.
Now this may be ethnicity and is decried by some as being terribly backwards but if my grandfather had wanted to be in an American Church then he would have joined, he spoke english and was born here. Yet he remained in his church because it was his and now it is mine. To throw away that for a umbrella church is distressing to say the least. I have an identity in my Church ,a clear focused identity. I am a Ukrainian in the Church of my fathers. That is something that those who have downplayed their heritage as unnecesary could not begin to understand. It makes me no better than anyone else but it certainly gives me a point from which I can start any situation that is unshakable and unassailable.

The byzantine tradition has always been one of peoples not localities ask an Italo Greek why he is in a Byzantine church when the splendor of Rome is a hundred miles away and he will probably say because he is an Italo Greek. We are not Protestant we don't go Church Shopping because we are grounded in our identities. A Ukrainian is a Ukrainian if you are nash you are nash and if not then you are not; deal with it.

Now some one out there in Byzantine forum land is probably saying ,"What about the quoted millions that the UGCC has lost in america and elsewhere, the ones who didn't have that identity?" Well if they didn't have that identity then obviously they didn't place to high a value on their forfathers religion or they would have. There is nothing repugnant about tradition. If someone feels at ome elsewhere then they are no longer at home in in the UGCC then they should probably either come to terms with why that is and adapt or leave and go elsewhere. Again the beauty of particular Churches lies in the individual expression that they represent. No one is better than the other and I am certain there is something that the Byzantine Church has that makes up for its apparant lack of identity but I don't know what that is. Maybe being the American Byzantine Church is the aim; fine you do that and we'll be the Ukrainian Church over here.

I welcome anyone who wants to experience my Church as it is; a Ukrainian Church. If they find that attractive then I welcome them with open arms and if they do not then I apologize but am unilling to devalue my faith and heritage to the point that it becomes mutable in an attempt to attract converts.

~Jason

Also after closer reading in regards to the following comment;

How many Canadians has the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Canada won for Christ? That is the only measure of success that matters. God has ordained you to witness Jesus Christ to all of Canada. To reduce this responsibility to a witness to a particular ethnic culture is a cop out. I know that they are strong words but they are true words.

made by Admin directly preceding my quote. Strong words indeed so the question that begs to be asked is first how exactly would you go about measuring the sucess of the Church it would seem that "winning" one soul for Chris that is of inesteemable value is an act of equally inestimable value. This being said and I assume it is safe to say the entire UGCC in Canada has had at least one convert it seems rather rash to write it off as a inferior entity. It would seem to be doing a better job in that locale than say the Byzantine Church which to my knowlege does not exist there or your proposed Pan Byzantine conglomeration which does not exist period. Weighed against an act of inestimable value such as one person finding Christ in the Church how is that you so freely toss about such amazing statements as questioning the exact number? Perhaps God in his Greatnss is somehow happier if more souls come to him via the UGCC? Is it just me or is there something inherently flawed with a sensless numbers game? When you can produce your Church and have it stably running outside of the United States and Xacarpachia the perhaps you might be justified in you assertions. Until then the Ukrainian Catholic church is still the Largest of the Eastern Catholic Churches so if you want to play numbers we win. Personally I would prefer to simply wait for the Last Judgement and have God let me know if I succeeded in spreading His Gospel. I witness to the United States from where I am in my Church not by denying what I am and robbing myself of the strength available to me but then as I said previously that may be difficult for someone to understand who would so willingly eschew tradition.

~Jason

Jason,

Welcome to the Forum and thank you for your participation in this discussion.

I submit for your consideration that your argument (in your first post) that the Ukrainian Catholic Church is only for Ukrainians (or those who wish to become Ukrainian) and others should go elsewhere to find Christ is in direct violation of the Gospel mandate to preach Christ to the entire world and to invite the entire world to become part of the Byzantine Catholic Church. Among some ethnic Byzantine Catholics (Ukrainian, Ruthenian and Arabic) there is this notion that you describe well: If someone feels at home elsewhere then they are no longer at home in the UGCC then they should probably either come to terms with why that is and adapt or leave and go elsewhere. Herein lies the problem. The Gospel commands us to welcome all people, not just those who find our ethnicity �attractive�. Too many of our parishes put ethnicity first and Jesus Christ second. If we actually heed the Gospel we are to welcome all people and place their ethnic gifts on the altar next to our own and at the same level as our own. Just as the Greeks gave Christ and Byzantine Christianity to the Slavs and the Slavs made it their own so, too, must we Byzantine Catholics of all ethnicities give Christ to America and help her make it her own.

What has this notion of ethnicity first, Christ second done to our parishes (Ruthenian, Ukrainian and Melkite)? It has chased people away from our Churches. When our young people grow up and marry people of other ethnicities they leave our Churches because they do not wish to inflict their ethnicity upon their new spouses. We are not seen as Christian communities. We are seen as ethnic communities closed to others. Those who find us and visit are treated politely but leave knowing that we will not share our gifts with them unless they adopt our ethnicity.

Each of our Churches here in America has lost 80% of its members in the last 50 years and, at the current rates, will lose another 80% over the next 20 years. In 70 years we will each have gone from about 260,000 people to about 10,000-12,000 people. [Yes, we will each have less people in the entire country than many individual Roman Catholic parishes.] With this loss of members we will also be closing between half and two-thirds of our parishes. Yes, some of this is due to economic conditions. Most of it, however, is due to the fact that we have not made newcomers welcome and there is no endless supply of fresh emigrants from Europe to fill our churches. It is very worrisome that, in many of our parishes, the people simply accept this because they prefer to see their parishes die then to embrace others and invite them to become Byzantine Catholic.

There are many ways in which one can witness Christ. I offer one that I have seen work. One wins souls for Christ by witnessing Christ in one�s own life, by following Him, worshipping Him, and obeying His Commandments. Does your parish sing the song: �This New Commandment I give to you; that you love one another just as I have so loved you. By this will you show the world the truth, that you are my disciples; by your love for each other.� based on Matthew 22:39? When one lives in Christ and loves one�s neighbor, one develops a certain manner that others find attractive. When someone who is empty looks for the driving force behind such a person they find Christ. This leads them to look where that person finds Christ and to go there in hopes of also finding Christ.

OK so far. I know many people in our Church that live wonderful lives in Christ and you can see it in them when you talk with them. But what happens when someone who is not a follower of Christ sees what they have and want it and come to our Churches to find it? Do they find Christ? Maybe. But often we are only willing to share Christ if someone is also willing to accept our ethnicities and replace his or her own ethnicity with ours. Some will pay this price to become part of our communities. Most won�t and go elsewhere in search of Christ.

Noting that a Church has the obligation to witness Christ to the community without also mandating that converts accept a supposed superiority of a particular ethnicity is not writing that Church off as an inferior entity. There is nothing in my posts that even suggests that one Church is inferior or superior to another.

Based upon the numbers I have seen there are, percentage-wise, very few people embracing and joining our respective Churches. Here in the United States, one can directly show a positive relationship between how open a parish is to non-ethnics and the number of people who choose to join those parishes. [I have already stated that the ethnic issues in Byzantine-Ruthenian parishes is not much different than in Byzantine-Ukrainian parishes, even though we embraced English almost 40 years ago.]

I have no idea what you mean by this statement. Please rephrase it. If you are speaking to the census numbers I have used they are accurate.

This statement make perfect sense for people living in Ukraine but how much sense does it make for Americans to have to accept a Ukrainian or other Slavic/Arabic ethnicity in order to become followers of Christ in our Churches?


I think it�s just you.

I see the demographic trends and know that, if nothing changes, in my Byzantine-Ruthenian Church that in 20 years we will be down to 10,000-12,000 people in parishes that are still mostly very ethnic and that in 50 years we will probably have only a handful of parishes in the entire country. I also see the same demographic trends for the Ukrainian Catholic Church here in the United States. No one can argue with the historical numbers. [Please note that the Ukrainian Catholic Church here in America is not the largest Byzantine Catholic Church in America. It is roughly equal to the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church. The numbers of Ukrainian Catholics in Ukraine is not relevant to a discussion about our Church in America unless sizable numbers of them are planning to immigrate here. Also, Canada is probably a generation or more away from the acute situation here in the United States because of its larger and more recent immigration.]

The question at hand is what do we do about these trends. We can close our eyes and champion ethnicity and watch our parishes close over the next generation, depriving our ethnic folks of places of worship. Or, we can to follow the Gospel command and invite everyone in our neighborhoods to come and make a home in the parish we call home. This would not only fulfill the Gospel Command of witnessing Christ but also provide our ethnic folk churches that they can continue to worship in.

We don�t need to wait for Judgment Day to see if we are succeeding in spreading His Gospel. We must consider the evidence before us, the fact that we are losing people and that in the near future we will be closing our parishes, not building new ones across America.

How does welcoming Joe American into our parishes and placing his ethnic gifts upon the altar next our own deny who we are or rob us our strength? Is our ethnicity so weak that it cannot be placed on the altar next to the ethnicities of others and survive? Or is our ethnicity so intertwined with our faith that we no longer know the difference between faith and ethnicity?


Question for All Participants:

Given Christ�s command to baptize all nations and make them disciples, what is the plan of your respective Church (or parish) to witness Christ and invite your neighbors to join your parish and become Byzantine Catholic?

Admin

Interesting, the UCGG is a particular Church that ministers as is stated in the name to Ukrainian Catholics. Also I was referring to Canada and the presence or lack there of of Eastern Catholic Churches there. The difference and a very important one at that is that if the Ukrainian Catholic Church in America were reduced to 10,000 or 12,000 members we would still be a part of a Church that is very strong in other places. We don't stand alone; we are connected by the very thing that you decry as weak because we refuse to get rid of it our ethnicity. As to my statement "Weighed against an act of inestimable value such as one person finding Christ in the Church how is that you so freely toss about such amazing statements as questioning the exact number?" I am referring quite simply to a basic sylogism.
A. The soul is of inestimable value to God
B. The UCCG has brought souls to God.
C. The UCCG is of inestimable value to God having brought souls to God.

As such to attempt to quantify the souls of people as in "one soul is not as good as two or three" is ridiculous being as you are dealing with creations of inestimable value. It's not like adding change. The witness of the Ukrainian Catholic Church is of the Ukrainian catholic Church. Yes ethncity is intrinsically linked with how we celebrate our religion. Something can not be one and not be that thing at the same time. Either it is Ukrainian or it is not Ukrainian. If someone would like to start a parish wherein all the services were celebrated in Spanish and they had beans and rice at the social afterwards they are more than welcome to do so but have enough respect for my culture to not impose it on me. I certainly am not doing it to you.

No it is not neccesary that someone pick up my culture to come to my Church. Not neccesary but very difficult not to. We are an ethnic Church; as I said before deal with it.

Now as to the statement that the UCCG and the Byzantine Catholic Church are much the same size in the country that is correct. However unlike the Byzantine Catholic Church the UCCG exists outside of this country and as such is larger. As I mentioned aside from America and Ukraine the Byzantine Church does not exist anywhere else. We have not sundered ties with the rest of our Church and are members of it. Only 10,000 members? Fine so be it. They will be 10,000 who have maintained the traditions of their forfathers and if one day the UCCG only exists in Ukraine then again that is fine.

Frankly I place faith that if my Church is meant to exist outside of Ukraine than it will continue to do so via the grace of God. We are not talking about a corporation here that is fairring badly in the markets; we are referring to the body of Christ. If the gates of hell shall not prevail against it then I seriously doubt our own faults will do that much.

"How does welcoming Joe American into our parishes and placing his ethnic gifts upon the altar next our own deny who we are or rob us our strength? Is our ethnicity so weak that it cannot be placed on the altar next to the ethnicities of others and survive? Or is our ethnicity so intertwined with our faith that we no longer know the difference between faith and ethnicity?"

Joe American is welcome to A: place his gifts next to mine
or B: Build his own altar and place them there
He is not welcome to place his gifts on top of mine or to dice both of them up and mix them together. Again yes it is so intertwined! That is not a bad thing. What would you have us idnetify with? The long dead relics of Byzantium or ths Pan Byzantine movement? Good luck with that I will stick to my ethnicity something as concrete as I am.

The idea of young people fleeing Ukrainian like the bubonic plague is the result of only presenting ethnicity and not presenting Christ. Its the Ukrainian without the Church. If a person cuts off Christ from his people then the people become very insufferable rather quickly. In the adverse to present the Church with out the Ukrainian is to rob it of any distinction that makes it unique and as such is unacceptable. The difference between a Roman Catholic and a Ukrainian Catholic is that one is Ukrainian and one isn't. As Alex mentioned
"Kyivan Christianity is an entity unto itself that developed over 1,000 years."
We have been around for a while and I amconfident that what the Turks, Poles , Soviets, and mongols have failed in destroying others will not succeed.

I welcome all who accept my Church as it is not what it might be. Constantinople fell we took the byzantine Church and made it ours if some one would like to take our faith and do something with it fine go ahead as you so admirably point out we are obligated to spread the Gospel. And Catholic is more important than Ukrainian however if they are seperated than you do not have my Church you have something else. What that is is not certain but it definatly not the UGCC.

As to inviting my neighbors to my Churhc I do that and if they wish to come they come.At my university I have groups of ten to fifteen fellow students who often come with me to various services in eastern Churches and they seem to appreciate them for what they are; the witness of Christ as evidneced in other cultures.

~Jason