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Why not choosing a neutral language like Old Greek, along with English or the language of the parishioners (in case Orthodox or Byzantine Catholics in the American Continent agree in having a united jurisdiction)? I don't think that the Mexican or South American "Easterners" would feel very confortable in only-english liturgies.

Jason,

Thank you for your post.

I remind you that this discussion is about the future existence of the Byzantine Catholic Churches in North America. I have no doubt that the Church in Ukraine will effectively and fully recover from the dark days of communism and proclaim the Gospel to the peoples who live in Ukraine as will our other Byzantine/Greek Catholic Churches in Europe. I am sure that they will set an example in evangelizing the unchurched that we should follow.

The first problem I see with your post is that you seek justification for the existence or nonexistence of your Church based upon the presence of your Church in another country. The strength of the Byzantine/Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine has nothing to do with the strength of the Byzantine/Greek Catholic Church here in North America.

The second problem I see with your post is that you seem to think I am suggesting that our respective Churches cleanse ourselves of all ethnicity. I have never suggested that. I am merely suggesting that we need to welcome all people of all ethnicities into our Churches.

The third problem I see is that you seem to believe that your Ukrainian Catholic Church has, as evidenced by its name, a mission to minister only to Ukrainians. Nothing could be further from the truth. The obligation of your Church is to proclaim the Gospel to all nations, not just people of a particular ethnic heritage. Your pseudonym of Matthew 16:18 shows that you hold Peter the Rock in high esteem. What do you make of his repeated instruction to our Churches to witness the Light of the East to the entire world and to invite them to become Byzantine Catholics?

Also, you seem to have missed that, if the current trends continue and both of our Churches in America wind up with 10,000 people in 20 years, both of our Churches will be severely challenged to remain in existence. 10,000 people means ~40 parishes nationwide for each of our Churches (assuming 250 people per parish). 10,000 people makes up a fairly normal sized Roman Catholic parish in my part of the United States. There would be no need to have one diocese to serve the needs of these people, let alone 4. But let�s look to the future another 10 years. If there is no evangelization and welcome given to non-ethnics 10 years after that there will be no Ukrainian Catholic or Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church in America. Most likely we will have maybe a dozen surviving parishes. Your profile shows you to be a student. I don�t know if you live in America, but if you do, are you willing to relocate to a city which has a Ukrainian Catholic parish? Connections to a patriarchate in another country will mean nothing when there are no people.

Regarding your �basic syllogism�:

A. The soul is of inestimable value to God
B. The UCCG has brought souls to God.
C. The UCCG is of inestimable value to God having brought souls to God.


I notice that you have not limited the souls that need to be brought to God to Ukrainians. All souls are of inestimable value to God. The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has indeed brought souls to God and is of estimable value. But if is only interested in bringing Ukrainian souls to God it will effectively cease to exist, meaning that it will not even be able to minister to the spiritual needs of the ethnic faithful here in the United States.

Is your culture more important that someone else�s salvation?

I am familiar with Byzantine Catholic parishes in the American Southwest that do sing portions of the Divine Liturgy in Spanish. And, yes, they serve tamales alongside of holupki and pirohi. Guess what? These parishes would have to close their doors if it were not for the presence of people of other ethnicities. Not only are �our people� in the Southwest following the command of Matthew 28 they are also enriching themselves and their parishes with other cultures. The gift back to God is that their multi-ethnic parish will be one of those which will exist in 20-30 years and keep growing while the parishes for the original Slavic ethnic groups close their doors because there are not enough ethnic folk to keep the doors open.

Yes, both of our Churches are ethnic Churches. But we are not supposed to be. We are called by Christ to be welcoming Churches, witnessing Jesus Christ to the entire world and inviting everyone we meet to become Byzantine Catholics. To deny this is to deny the Gospel.

The fact that the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church exists outside of this country and is large is irrelevant to a discussion of the Church in America.

The fact that we do not really exist anywhere else is rather embarrassing. The fact that our numbers are in this country are falling rather than growing means that we have chosen not to follow Christ�s command to evangelize.


As long as you remain in communion with the Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine you will have ties to her.

So it is perfectly fine with you that the Ukrainian Catholic Church here in the United States ceases to exist? I find that very sad indeed.

God�s grace to grow His Church needs our cooperation. Our spiritual ancestors who came from Europe built parishes in order to transmit their Greek Catholic Faith to their children. Now we have a generation who say that the Greek Catholic Faith is unimportant and that it is really the Slavic ethnicity that must be transmitted. And that if it is diluted in any way it is better for it to die completely.

No one has suggested that anyone should dice up your ethnic gifts. Allowing others to place theirs alongside yours only strengthens the Church and helps it to grow.

The vast majority of ethnic Slavs, Arabs and Greeks from our Greek Catholic and Orthodox parishes who marry outside our respective Churches now worship in their spouse�s non-Slav, non-Arabic or non-Greek Church. There are more people of Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Arabic and Greek ethnicity worshipping in Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches than are worshipping in Byzantine/Greek Catholic and Orthodox Churches. What does this say about us and our responsibility to witness Jesus Christ and make people welcome in our Churches?

Our Churches are not called to witness of Christ as evidenced in other cultures. Our Churches � we - are called to witness Christ to all people in whatever culture we find ourselves in and to invite those people to become part of the Byzantine Catholic Church. The Greeks helped the Slavs to receive Christ and Byzantine Christianity and make it their own. We are like the Greeks. We are to help North America to receive Christ and Byzantine Christianity and make it its own.

Admin

Well i think that the problem here is that our premise sets are different. You seem to feel that the call to evangelization neccesitates a big wide open arms approach where as I feel that by living a quiet Christian life God will care for his Church. There is probably truth in both opinions. However my theory holds sway in my Church and as such I am content.

Also as concerns myself yes I do live in America and am a student at theCatholic University in Washington DC.

You have not advocated living a quiet Christian life in your posts. What you have called for is the preservation of ethnicity and the acceptance of others only if they are willing to accept that that ethnicity comes first in the life of the UGCC. There is room for and need for both types of Christians. Some are called to active evangelization, others to a more quiet witness of faith. But this is not what you have argued in your posts.

I invite you to answer the questions I have put forth. Do you believe that your Greek Catholic Church has an obligation to witness the Gospel to all people according the command of Matthew 28:19. If yes, how should it be accomplished by your local parish? If no, how do you justify an obvious deviation from the Gospel?

You live in Washington, DC? Wonderful. The greater Washington, DC area has more than doubled its population in the last 20 years. The Ukrainian Catholic Shrine of the Holy Family has been in existence for almost 54 years. It has about half the number of people it had at its high point. Who will be there to worship in 20 years? Will there be a priest to lead them in prayer? These are important questions that should not be dismissed with a �leave me alone� attitude.

Well a fair question I suppose. Yes we are called to witness to all peoples and we do so as we are. We are Ukrainian; if our witness is not appealing to many then it is a matter of holiness but taste. We also care for any who care to find us attractive. Indeed we do sit quietly at the doors and if anyone cares to enter we welcome them if we do not then it is on our own heads. The idea is to make a home for those present and if others find it comftorable they will enter. As to the Shrine as I understand there is another parish in Silver spirng whos formation led to the depletion of it parish population. A complicated situation that I am not informed enough about to comment with authority on. If you want an American witness then ask an American. I identify with both and as such am capable of both; there are those in my church who only identify themselves as Ukrainians. Ask a cat to be a dog and see if it happens. The same concept applies.

I advocate that ethnicity is a part of my Church a large part not that it come first. I do advocate that it not be thrown away for some uncertain priciple nor that it besupressed.
That has happened enough to it over the years.

First let me say this to both Alex and Krylos Leader.... Thank you for this stimulating discussion that has avoided the nastiness that has, at times, croped up here.

And ending a comment with "deal with it" is IMHO annoying in the least and ignorant.

I do not agree with this, as the Latin church you speak of in Spanish Harlem is just serveing the people there, not everyone.

But let me at, it is an individual church within the greater body of the Latin Church, where as the UGCC takes the opposite extreme, where every church uses Ukrainian with the odd church using english/church slavonic.

Where the Latin Church may place a church to operate within an ethnic ghetto, it seems that the UGCC only chooses to do so.

So while I may disagree with that Latin church you spoke of it is understandable, it is an exception to the rule, whereas for the UGCC it is the rule.

Getting a bit snippy here? :p

You are right about my getting off topic.

As for multiple liturgies though, yes if there are so many parishioners and they can not build a new church and do not wish to form a new parish then I can see where it is necessary but is a Saturday Vigil Divine Liturgy ever acceptable?

As for the english liturgies not being well attended, I think there are multiple reasons, one is that non-Ukrainian are not made to feel welcome and two, the fact that the liturgy is recited. But again, that is a topic for another thread.


David

Dear Krylos Leader:

Referring to your Ukrainian Village centered in the V & O Church, West Side of Chicago, as a CONCLAVE of Slavic ethnocentricity leads me to wondering if you have elected, or in the process of electing, your own "Ukrainian Pope"!?

Or, are you trying to outdo Alex, the preeminent Orthodox-Catholic, and have elevated HB Lubomyr Husar further up as THE Pope of All-Kyiv and the diaspora?

Otherwise, let's stick to the word "ENCLAVE" to underscore the beauty, and the uniqueness, of Chicago's Ukrainian Village as the Greeks do to their own "Greek Town" nearby.

Case dismissed, your honor!


Amado

Enclave or not, give me some nalysnyky and varenyky from Sak's Ukrainian Village anytime...

My youngest son Nikolai was asked by Fr. Ivan to serve at V&O for the feast of the Ascension (Julian) since we were in town for the consecration...my son still hasn't come back to earth yet from that (and Krystyna let me sing with her too so neither have I)

Dear ADMIN:

I do agree with you that those numbers are guestimates.

However, my gut reaction to that underscored portion of your post must have been triggered, subconsciously, by a fact stored in the recesses of my memory.

Projecting the U.S. "phenomenon" into a worldwide scale, isn't it an alarming fact that Islam has been outpacing Chrtistianity in so may parts of the globe?

Yes, Islam as of now constitutes about a little over 50% of Christianity but its "progressive" growth rate is fuelled in part by "hatred" of anything and anyone perceived to be under the yoke of "Western" Christianity/civilization.

Resurgent Islam now stretches from Central Asia and Asia Minor, through the Middle East and Southwest Asia, and to the largest Muslim country of Indonesia in Southeast Asia forming a formidable Islamic crescent.

Certain quarters are wont to categorize regional conflicts as a prelude to the "war of civilizations," a veiled reference to the inevitable clash between Christian and Muslim nations: the Armageddon?

Against this backdrop, you are then right to posit that Church disunity should be a trifle compared to this reality: Christendom is just but 1/3 of all humanity and Islam is beckoning on the horizon!

Amado

I think that what the Admin., is saying does make some sense, but I don't see the UGCC not evangelising people just because they aren't Ukrainians. In Brazil we have liturgies in Ukrainian and other liturgies in Portugues for those who do not understand the language.
Although I much rather prefer the Ukrainian language liturgy. Maintaining the your ethnic language and traditions also has its advantages you know. If I go to Italy I know I can go to a Ukrainian church and participate in a language that I understand because the liturgy will be celebrated in Ukrainian and that goes for the Ukie churches in France, Greece, Argentina, England, Germany, Brazil etc.
Now unless the Admin.,speaks for example German or Ukrainian while in Germany, he wouldn't be able to understand the readings from the Gospel nor understand the sermon during the Byzantine liturgy.
Just defending the Ukie side. No ofense.
Lauro

But you know - this inablity to understand when you are in a 'foreign' country is not just an 'Eastern ' thing - it happens to us latins as well

Now I can just about cope with Portugese - with an effort ,and the Homily is waaaaay above my head ,simply because I do have a tiny Portugese Prayer Book with the Mass in Portugese.

French I find difficult and Spanish is just impossible for me.

So the problems I have with Liturgy in Ukrainian are just the same - except that there I use an English translation buty of course the homily is beyond me .

I think tradition is very important and so far I have come to realise that tradition is also very much bound up with the Liturgy - both should be preserved.

If I were permanently in a country where English was not spoken then I would have to learn the local but I would use English at home and would join an English speaking group of British ex- Pats if it were possible, to preserve my background and native Culture. Isn't this what the Ukrainians are doing - preserving their traditions and culture ? Should they not pass it on to their children, grandchildren etc.

Isn't this also exactly what the Moslems do - and they are growing in number ?

Please forgive a Non Ukie , a Non Byzantine , Latin for interfering here.

Anhelyna

No Forgiveness is neccesary. As I stated in earlier posts The Ukrainian Church is the witness of Christianity as it develpoed in Ukraine and is developing there and in other places where Ukrainians settled. This is not the ideal situation for people who or not ukrainian but for those of us who are it serves as a wonderful vehicle to pass on our faith and heritage to others.

As a side note I am nto really concerned about Islam. Look up my name and see that Christ promised that we would endure to the end of the world; personally I'll take His word for it. :p