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Alex,

But are you actively also working towards the creation of Byzantine/Greek Catholic parishes in which people choosing to be non-Ukrainian Byzantine/Greek Catholic can join?

Quite true. But many millions will be thrilled to join a Byzantine Catholic parish were a liking for holupki and kielbasi is not a requirement to get in the door.

And they deserve a place in your parish that is equal to your own wonderful ethnicity.

Actually no! We�ve discussed this before. My position is very Eastern. I can�t help it if it also very logical. Byzantines do not have a history of creating overlapping ecclesial structures based upon ethnicity. Where it has occurred it is not the norm.

No! I am recommending a single jurisdiction for all ethnicities that make up the Byzantine Catholic Church in America. There is a huge difference. A Church organized primarily on its ethnicity cannot by nature treat other ethnicities as equals. The OCA created ethnic jurisdictions within a larger, single structure in order to form a stronger Church. These ethnic jurisdictions can be eliminated when they are no longer needed or new ones can be established as necessary.

No! It supports my argument that we need to welcome all ethnicities into our Churches as equals. Your �Sister Church� is the one down the street just as much as it is the one in Ukraine or the Mid East.

Admin

Dear All:

Let me just interject something else.

In Ukie circles we tend to boil our cuture down to "Hopak and Varenyky" (translation: to dancing and pierogies).

I respectfully submit that there is a cutural undercurrent in our parishes that goes WAY beyond that.

Organizing a tango night at V&O's in Chicago or a Mexican-style Fiesta at St. Nick's in Toronto is not the issue.

It is the feeling, the emotional link to the culture of one's antcesctors that is the issue.

Every day our expression of Rite continues as it has for over a 1,000 years.

Every holiday season we celebrate the movements of the sun in the manner that our ancestors did in pre-Christian times.

It is all intertwined into a tapestry that cannot be unwoven - even if we wanted to.

Yours,

kl

Dear Administrator,

Why should we all belong to one jurisdiction?

But I don't see the logic behind your idea!

I think my view is logical, not yours!

Since you seem to be hung up on the OCA, that truly is a good example of a Church, formerly Russian, but with still a good dose of "Russkieness" in areas, that has adapted to other cultures including the American identity.

But this varies from parish to parish - and there are still many "ethnic" Orthodox Churches around that show little signs of folding.

That's my argument for what will result with your NA plan - a Byzantine "OCA" system that will become a repository for the de-ethnicized members of other Churches.

But the point of Mr. Jenkins' study is that Catholicism in the U.S. isn't going the assimilationist route.

If that is the case, then IF the overall cultural mainstream of NA (and not just Canada) becomes diversely cultural, there will, I predict, actually be LESS of a push factor toward a single Byzantine jurisdiction.

No matter how much you argue the point, strong religious cultural identity among Byzantine Catholics equals strong affinity for ancestral Particular Churches in the homeland and its branchplants here.

In terms of adopting to converts, as I said, but you won't listen, Sir, we up here are adapting to them nicely.

FYI, I just got off the phone with a wonderful lady of Scottish background who attended a wedding at St Demetrius parish here. She wants to transfer to that parish to attend the English language Liturgy.

I really think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

And future losses from the Byzantine Catholic Church in your neck of the woods will be, I believe, to the OCA - as many OCAers I've spoken too also believe.

And, the more "Orthodox in communion with Rome" and de-ethnicized you guys become, the more you will lose to the OCA - no matter what language you speak or how much kielbassa you munch at the church "odpusts."

As for Hispanics, there are some Orthodox parishes in the U.S. that are Hispanic and St John Maximovitch of Shanghai did ordain the first Spanish Orthodox priest.

He founded a number of national Churches, including the Church for America. But somehow I don't think he envisioned getting rid of ROCOR's jurisdictional integrity and Russian cultural character.

Any more platitudes in this regard, Sir?

Alex

KL,

Thank you for a thought provoking post.

Where does one start? With ourselves. We start by being welcoming to anyone who walks into our church and then by inviting and welcoming those who do not share our ethnic background. We must work at making them feel at home in our parishes. Too often God sends us coverts and we make it difficult for them because we insist that they also convert to our particular ethnicity.

I have not suggested eliminating the �Ukie majority�. I have only suggested educating �our people� about our Christian Faith and teaching them that we have a responsibility to welcome everyone into our parishes regardless of their ethnic background. And, yes, even so that a handful of converts feels more at home in a sea full of Ukies! That will just be the start!

A hierarchical structure for when we are getting large numbers of converts? Yes, that is an issue. It makes no sense for Hispanic and Asian Byzantine Catholic Americans to be governed from a Church in Ukraine or the Middle East. That is why I advocate a self-governing structure according to the traditional model of Church governance in the East. A Patriarch of Washington, DC, for all Byzantine Catholics would be very nice. For starters, however, a merged Synod of Bishops with a non-ethnically orientated major archbishop comprised of all the existing ethnic ecclesial structures with no ties to other lands would be nice.

I am not at all advocating the Ruthenian Church be the leader of such a combined ecclesial structure but I will note that the model is useful. The Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church has no ecclesial ties to the Slavic Motherland. Yes, we put up with the issues from Rome but not more than the Ukrainian Church which is under its own patriarch/major archbishop in Kiev. A united, single ecclesial structure embracing all ethnic nationalities would be good for the Church. I know that Alex considers this to be latinizing but this is the Eastern model.

How does this affect your two points about the UGCC in North America? It doesn�t. Both are perfectly valid. Healing the wounded souls of the people in Europe is an important mission. So, too, is providing a central meeting place for recent immigrants and the effort to teach them about Christ. The UGCC can effectively teach the faith to these newcomers while at the same time being open to newcomers of all ethnicities. An important element here is that you have ethnic Ukrainian newcomers coming to you because they are Ukrainian. That is not a good enough reason for them to stay. If they stay only because the parish is mainly Ukrainian something is being missed. They must stay because they find Christ in your midst. I have no doubt that the vast majority of our parishes have Christ present in their midst but sometimes they seem to believe that He was an ethnic Ukrainian (or Ruthenian, or Arab)!

I have never called upon the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church to drop its ethnicity. Nor have I suggested that being ethnic is somehow violating God�s commandments. What I have suggested is that we need to make our parishes homes for all people, regardless of ethnicity.

Don�t forget. �OUR PEOPLE� means �ALL PEOPLE�. It is not limited to any particular ethnicity.

Admin

I have one thing to add, where is the FOOD DEAR ADMINISTRATOR ???? All these posts to read has me hungry for that SLAVIC SPANISH FOOD, hope the salsa isn't from NYC.

james

Dear Admin:

OK. Let's start with ourselves and decide we want to be "more welcoming." Let's see:

"God Eternal" is out as a Nativity Carol. Certainly "Joy to the World" would be more welcoming.

Certainly this quaint custom of blessing food at Pascha is an unneeded relic of our Slavic past.

How 'bout embriodered vestments and table linens? No question we can be less "in your face Ukrainian" by getting rid of these.

Maybe we should dispose with the decorating of our homes and churches with greenery on Pentecost and having a special panachyda for those who died fighting for a free Ukraine. WAY out of bounds there!

As I've said before - tightly interwoven tapestry. Can't undo a thousand years of culture.

As for education of our parishoioners - sure our clergy can give homilies about being welcoming to non-Ukes. But even if a newcomer is greeted with all the Christian love we can muster, I respectfully submit he would STILL feel out of place unless we did all of what I mentioned above and whole lot more.

As for the new immigrants from Ukraine, please believe me when I tell you that our church made it possible (not easier, but possible) for these folks to put Christ into their lives.

Finally, you say that you have never called upon the UGCC in North America to drop its ethnicity.

Once again, I must respectfully assert that if you tell us we can no longer be under the jurisdiction of the Kyivan Patriarch, that is exactly what you are calling upon us to do.

Yours,

kl

Alex,

Thanks for your post.

Why should we belong to one jurisdiction? How about to show unity in Christ? Or to pool resources in order to better evangelize North America. Isn�t that enough reason in itself? I could add that it is the tradition of our Byzantine Church to create Churches and then let them mature into their own experience. You seem to be ignoring the example of SS Cyril & Methodius. They gave the Christian Faith to the Slavs and then the Slavs took it and over the next thousand years grew it into the wonderful Kievan Experience that it is today. Do you not know that you are also an apostle and have an obligation to give to North America what Cyril & Methodius gave to you? Do you not acknowledge the Christian responsibility of your Church to be apostles to North America?

If you still reject the idea of evangelization then how about the more pressing issue of survival? Here in the United States as our strongly ethnic parishes continue to loose people would you prefer that a Ukrainian parish band together with a Melkite one to form a single community or would you prefer that both close? In his post earlier, Michael touched on the fact that, in the future, eight overlapping dioceses will be unmanageable for a total Byzantine Catholic population that would make up one large Roman Catholic parish. Is better to be ethnically pure and dead rather than to cooperate and grow? Your parishes in Canada are larger and that issue is not so pressing due to the more recent and larger emigration from Europe. But it is an issue you or the next generation will have to deal with.

BTW, I have never suggested that you need to give up your ethnicity yet you keep accusing me of being on some sort of de-ethnicization program. All I have suggested is that our Byzantine Catholic Churches have an obligation to invite all people to become Byzantine Catholic and to welcome them into our parishes and place their ethnic gifts on the altar next ours. No one has suggested assimilation. Unless you believe that parishes in the Southwest which have ethnic dinners consisting of both pierogies and tamales is assimilation and that even allowing other ethnics to cook in the parish kitchen is objectionable?

If we take Christ�s command to witness the Gospel to everyone in North America we need to come to terms with several things.

We need to discern the difference between our religious and ethnic identities. There are those who believe that they cannot be separated. The existence, however, of so many different ethnic Eastern Churches shows that they can be separated and that our Byzantine religious identity can embrace other ethnicities present in North America and do so while allowing the preservation of the unique and wonderful Slavic and Arabic religious experiences. We can convert a sizable portion of North Americans to Jesus Christ and our Byzantine Catholic Church if we take evangelization seriously.

Admin

James,

Yes! I am hungry, too.

You cannot buy good salsa. They put preservatives in it. Salsa is fairly easy to make and making it fresh is important. [Purists, close your eyes here.] You can cheat on the pierogies by using Mrs. T�s. I know! I know! They are not like home made. But if you are far from the Motherland of Pennsylvania they can be a blessing. Just cook up some fresh salsa (with lots of cilantro) and boil the pierogies. Then serve the pierogies covered with the fresh salsa. It�s actually a lot less fattening than butter and onions. [Purists, you can open your eyes now.]

Admin

Dear Admin:

I know you post was to Alex, but I'm enjoying this discussion so much that I must beg your forgiveness for jumping in ahead of myself.

You say that the Byzantine experience allows churches to mature into their own experience. But it seems that a proposal to merge now would be to introduce an un-natural element into what is supposed to be a natural process.

Finally, Mrs. T's are OK but salsa from a jar isn't? Ay chihuaua!

Yours,

kl

While the thread has been very interesting and full of life,
The topic gets on nerves and foments strife.

We are off the original topic and people are repeating
The arguments are good, we keep entreating!

People hear an argument
and they see red.

Is it time to call a draw and close the thread?

Dear Coalesco:

Personally, I'm having fun.

Yours,

kl

Dear Administrator:

Sorry, those of us with Middle Eastern connections will stick with the baklava or, perhaps during Great Lent, falafel. Then again, kielbasa is good too.

I really have nothing to add to the discussion except some general comments. While it is true that outside of the Americas the rule was one country-one Church. However, the Americas (North, Central and South) seem to have an entirely different life.

We Melkites run the gamut: there are highly ethnic parishes (my own parish has less than 10 non-Arab families) while some are primarily non-Arab. A neighboring parish actually has a number of Hispanics ("Se�or ten piedad" is commonly heard in the litanies).

While there is benefit in melding the parishes as a sign of unity there is also the risk of losing part of the identity of the parish and the people who make up the parish.

I struggle with how to make my parish more inclusive -- to bring non-Arabs to the parish. One would think that with a tradition of hospitality that the Arabs are famous for this should not be difficult. However, the mixture of Arabic and English (with a smattering of Greek) seems to keep many away.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Me too!

Dear Coalesco:

If you're having fun, why offer the draw?

Yours,

kl

Like I said, people are repeating themselves.

And it is way off topic.

Michael