www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall A Disturbing Poll...

I saw this link today: http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2012/02/60-minutes-poll-201202#slide=6

and found it pretty astonishing.

According to this poll, at least, only 15% of Catholics believe that the world would be a better place if everyone were Christian. By the way, that's the same percentage of Catholics who, according to the same poll, think the world would be a better place if there were no religion.

First of all, it's surprising to me there would even be one Catholic out there who thinks the world would be a better place if there were no religion. Why, exactly, are you even a Christian, then?

It's also shocking to see how different these numbers are from Evangelicals, and even Protestants in general. Half of Protestants - just generic Protestants! - believe the world would be a better place if everyone were Christian.

This, to me, highlights how ecumenically-mad Catholics have gone. Religious diversity has been trumpeted by far too many in the Church for far too long at the expense of the unique saving truth of the Christian faith. Now, it would seem, the vast majority of Catholics see religious diversity as the ideal and view anything less as undesirable. Truly tragic.

Alexis

They've listened to John Lennon's "Imagine" far too frequently...

I have admitted this before, on this forum, that I am very ambivalent when it comes to religion in general, and my own in particular. And I have to reflect on this attitude...sometimes I am not so sure I have faith as much as perhaps a neurotic addiction to religiosity.

One reason for that is, I come from a very religiously diverse family. Mostly nominal Christians: Gk. Catholics, Roman Catholics, OCA, Baptist, Methodist; also some Jews. We had to learn to refrain from knocking each others' religion or lack of it. My parents are (were) indifferent to religion and my father (God rest his soul) always thought it was kinda silly...My mother is very angry with the Catholic hierarchy and so am I.Nothing can be done about that. So anyway, I do not ever encourage people to give Catholicism a try. If someone wants to talk about it, that's fine but I always warn people to be very careful when considering getting involved in it, or any other religion. I have zero missionary zeal - and I'm OK with that. It's fine with me if people belong to any or no religion. I just don't care.

Catholic bishops allowed and enabled crazy priests to do unspeakable things - they inflicted a tremendous amount of pain on people and that's one reason they have lost their credibility. Personally I'd listen to them more if they'd just shut up.

Religion has caused a lot of stress, disapointment and RAGE in our lives while being paradoxically for me a kind of prism through which I can sometimes begin to make sense out of the absurdities & contradictions of the human condition. I start with my own absurdities and contradictions. I don't just have a beam in my eye - I have an entire forest!

I don't know if I'd fret too much over this poll. It did not surprise me in the least to see something like this published in Vanity Fair, especially with a very nice photo of His Holiness strategically placed to the right of the poll results.

The footnotes provided basic data on the poll, indicating it was the summary of 951 responses drawn nationally and randomly via telephone. When was the last time you answered a telephone poll conducted by a news organization? And what about the national do-not-call registry, which inherently limits the polled universe in potentially significant ways? While statisticians would tell you that results from a sample of 951 can be construed as statistically significant, they should also tell you in all honesty that the inherent limitation on the population to be polled should place some considerable down on the veracity of the results.

FWIW ...

Such surveys are meaningless. A good survey writer can get whatever answers he wants by shaping the questions appropriately. Also, remember, everybody lies about sex and religion, and when filling out a survey, people tend to give the answer they think will be received well by the person giving the survey.

And finally, remember that in these surveys, respondents self-identify; i.e., they say they are Catholic, but the term has no meaning. In most cases, it means no more than that the respondent had an Irish or Italian grandmother.

Stuart is right; this survey is meaningless and will only be talked about in talk shows and radio. But then, it's sponsored by Vanity Fair and 60 Minutes, so what do you expect...magazine sales and network tv are slumping.

People take religion for granted....like the song "Big Yellow Taxi,"...you don't really know what you got til it's gone. With our "me" culture, greed and "I deserve it" attitudes, just imagine if there was no moral restraint to keep us from anarchy.

The reported finding that three quarters of Americans would go back to school if it was free is also a joke, but then...that's what the NEA wants to hear so they can lobby for more money.

At least one can note the stark difference between the Catholic respondents and the Protestant and Evangelical respondents. Half of the Protestant respondents don't seem to care whether the poller may be offended that they think the world would be better if everyone were Christian.

Alexis

I tend to be skeptical of any resource where the sources are not identified and the conclusions are little more than generalities. I'vew come to believe that people are so fearful of not having novelty in their lives that even if it were good for them, I think many folks would resist a truly "vanilla world".

I submit that polls are a way of introducing variation and novelty into what would otherwise be a pretty hum-drum news day. Like the Chicago weather, when it comes to polls that you don't like, just wait 15 minutes and something new will come along.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Many if not most of the problems with "religion" stem back to our disunity. It's not a big jump from "look at all the disunity" to "why should I care about religion when they don't". Another problem stems from the diverse definition the word religion has. Many would argue that in the truest sense the Catholic Church is not a religion but a universal love and devotion to God. I like that. Some people think something like legalism or phariseeism when they think of religion. Then there's the words of James. Finally, the most widely held definition is to "tie back to ultimate reality." As long as St. Paul (or perhaps the paulinist) writes "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together as some do" I shall continue to assemble. Moreover, so long as the founder of our Church is Jesus I'll follow Him.

Look, we can all agree that polls are polls, and not divinely revealed truth. That said, I still find the results to be significant.

The response that interests me most is the one which states that the world would be a better place if there were no religion.

Now, I would like to know of any Christian who believes the world would be a better place without the Christian faith. So, God became Man and was crucified for us and resurrected from the dead to found a Church that He knew would have an overall negative impact on humanity, such that its total eradication or non-existence would have proven to be a net gain for human happiness?

Sorry, but that's nuts.

Alexis

Carson,

I certainly agree that it is disunity, rather than ecumenism, that is contributing to the decline of Christianity in the West. I also agree that "some people think something like legalism or phariseeism when they think of religion."

For my part, if I were answering this poll, I would look at the "one global religion" option and simply assume this meant "enforced by some kind of global government," which of course, would be unacceptable--even if it had a semblance of "Christianity." Therefore, I probably would have selected the "religious diversity" option.

As for the "John Lennon" option (i.e. no religion), I do find 15% surprisingly high for those who identify themselves as Catholic. I would guess that perhaps some of these don't perceive the contradiction, others, as Stuart suggested, "had an Irish or Italian grandmother," while still others, as you suggest, "would argue that in the truest sense the Catholic Church is not a religion ..." (Then, of course, maybe the numbers don't mean anything at all ...)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Good point, Fr. Deacon Richard. Sometimes these polls force sub-optimal answers. Reminds one of some personality assessments ...

Carson, I did not mean to dismiss your concerns entirely, but I am always wary of pollsters (who normally have agendas).

That said, I do agree that disunity is clearly an issue. For those who are not Christian (including those who may have strayed), it is rather convenient to look in from the outside and say "gee, these Christian folks can't even get along with each other".

If we thoughtfully read Christ's prophetic and prayerful plea in John 17: 20-21 (that we "all be as one"), you could almost hear Him speaking to us now ...

One can always take the Alexander Schmemann position and say that Christianity is not a religion, but rather the end of religion or the challenge to all religion, if religion is understood as a mediating institution between man and the divine.

Exactly what Jesus said in John 17. He said that our unity would be a sign to the world that the Father had sent Him. Well? What is our disunity but a sign to the world that religion is a joke and there is no such thing as truth.

(Hey, Carson! LOE from the DCF board!)

Put it another way. If you were a pagan in Africa and saw 8 different missionaries with 8 different messages and teachings about the same God, would you tend to believe them or think they were all quite a bunch of nutters?

That's probably how the pagans in the USA see us.