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Two friends of mine have contemplated converting to Judaism. Both had poor experiences in both the Byzantine Catholic Church and the OCA. They seemed to be convinced that the "Church" has corrupted Jesus and His message. They have become more attracted to Jesus the Jew.

What are your suggestions?

Joe

You could consider apologizing to them for our Church�s poor witness of Jesus Christ.

Shlomo J. Thur,
There is a third way that could be proposed to your friends. Why not have them attend one of the Antiochene-Edessan Churches. These Churches (such as the Maronite, Syriac, Assyrian, and Chaldean) are the closest to the Semitic roots of the Church.

I would also recommend Fr. Salim's book: "Captivated By Your Teachings" which gives a wonderful presentation of the Semitic Nature of the Maronite Church.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

If they convert to Judaism, how would they be able to worship Jesus the Jew ?

Joe,

Maybe direct them to the Hebrew Catholic Association. Perhaps the witness of Jews who have come to seen the truth of the Gospel of Christ would help them.

http://hebrewcatholic.org/

http://www.secondexodus.com/

http://www.remnantofisrael.net/

In Christ,
Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Rev. Fr. Deacon Lance,

Yes, the Hebrew Catholic Association is an excellent idea - as is Yuhannon's!

I have been involved with them to an extent (I promised them an article that I have yet to complete, I hope they can forgive me).

But it would depend where Cantor Joseph's friends are coming from.

My priest-friend's sister-in-law recently converted to Judaism and she came from a very pious, Church-going family. It was something of a shock to him and his Presbytera.

When they had them over for dinner, Fr. Bob turned to the couple and said, "Well, perhaps I'll see both of you as members of our parish sometime in the future."

At that, the young man turned to him and said,"Or perhaps I'll see you and your wife in our synagogue?"

If it is a matter of wishing to have a greater "Old Testament Judaic" orientation, then Yuhannon's suggestion and yours will "do the trick."

If it is a matter of losing actual faith in Christ, then that won't help at all.

I know that there are converts to Judaism and not too long ago there was a Baptist minister who rejected Christianity and is studying Judaism.

When the "Jews for Jesus" had their mission outreach in Toronto during the summer, the "Jews for Judaism" countered them with signs and posters etc. Although Jews are not today known for mission outreach, they have organized to counter Christian arguments and to keep Jews within the Jewish community. They have also attracted, as I said, Evangelical Christians, like that Baptist minister.

We should remember that the Orthodox Church in the sixteenth century, I believe, faced the challenge of the "Judaizers" or Orthodox Christians who converted to Judaism while remaining within Orthodox Christianity. Not only Russian aristocracy but also important members of the Orthodox clergy became members of this sect, regarded as a Christian heresy.

They were against icons and basically wanted to develop a Russian form of Jewish worship and belief. They were excommunicated by the Kyivan Church as the "Sekta Zhidovstvuyuchikh" and this is why the term "Zhid" is so offensive as a term for Jews in the East Slavic languages (but not in other Slavic languages).

I think that Cantor Joseph could, after finishing apologising to his friends, as the esteemed Administrator suggests, see what angle his two colleagues are coming from and then decide to either 1) make a suggestion to them directly or else 2) come back here for further advice

Shalom!

Alex

Administrator,
//You could consider apologizing to them for our Church�s poor witness of Jesus Christ.//

Yes. I believe they failed to find much witnessing of Jesus. Luckily, they don�t feel it necessary to be anti-Christian. Their particular attachment to Jesus keeps things hopeful. I�m sure we all can learn about Jesus� own teaching on forgiveness of sins.

Yuhannon,
//There is a third way that could be proposed to your friends. Why not have them attend one of the Antiochene-Edessan Churches. These Churches (such as the Maronite, Syriac, Assyrian, and Chaldean) are the closest to the Semitic roots of the Church.//

Good points. I myself have not had much of an opportunity to frequent such communities. I am aware of their greater degree of closeness to Semitic roots.

//I would also recommend Fr. Salim's book: "Captivated By Your Teachings" which gives a wonderful presentation of the Semitic Nature of the Maronite Church.//

Maybe this would make a good �Christmas� give for this year? I remember a former rabbi who converted to Orthodoxy and wrote his story about how �Jewish� our temple and worship was/is. I forgot his name, but I remember reading it on-line. Thanks for ringing the bell. I will have to refer these to them just like the many �Jesus the Jew� studies being done out there. Wasn�t Geza Vermes(sp?) a former Catholic priest who reverted though?

Lawrence,
//If they convert to Judaism, how would they be able to worship Jesus the Jew ?//

Many people are attracted to Jesus without necessarily worshipping him. There are even new books out there, including a Gospel commentary, written by a Jewish rabbi. Once again, another bell goes off. I remember seeing a copy of this at the local Borders store. Sounds like another book for the holidays. I have the Jewish New Testament and commentary too to loan them. But, of course, maybe attending a more Semitic church would be the best since it is in worship and community that the Gospel makes more sense.

Lance,
//Maybe direct them to the Hebrew Catholic Association. Perhaps the witness of Jews who have come to seen the truth of the Gospel of Christ would help them.//

Thanks for the links. I will have to check them out and refer them. I�m sure there may be some contacts there that can be of benefit during this time.

Alex,
//But it would depend where Cantor Joseph's friends are coming from.//

A very complex problem. Personally, I myself have delved deeper into the Jewish-ness of Christianity and Jesus the Jew studies and find myself coming through it with a deeper respect for how well the Evangelists and early church preserved its Judaic past. Even Paul, who has been accused of �inventing� Christianity, has found to be more Jewish than originally thought. Whereas my respect has preserved and deepened my faith, that same path, including pretty bad experiences, may have led them to other pastures.

God bless,
Joe

I find incredible to understand how some people can apostatize from Apostolic Christianity to Judaism. I also find incredible how people find that "normal" or "acceptable".

Not so long ago I saw in a site that a Catholic Bishop had introduced to his congregation at Liturgy, a man who converted from Catholicism to Judaism, not to criticize his sinful apostasy, but to encourage it! He said it was good that he had enough brave heart to convert.

Not so long ago, the Bishop of Cyprus lighted a "menorah" candle in a Jewish ceremony, headed by a Rabbi who had apostatized from Orthodoxy after WWII (He said he had been "forced to convert to Christianity").

People who apostatize are jeopardizing their salvation, assuming condemnation and we Christians are saying "Ok" to that? I can't believe how the famillies of these persons you have mentioned, still receive them as members of the community as if nothing had happened.

Now, from my conversations with Jewish religious people, a non-Jew is not that because of his religion but because he's not part of the People of Israel, so converting to Judaism does not make sense, even according to them.

Have these Apostolic Christians analysed the Apostolic Canons and the writings of the Church Fathers and the fierce condemnations given to Christian believers who approve this?

Dear Mexicano,

I think that the issue of why people choose to join this or that religion may or may not have something to do with a firm belief in the philosophical correctness of the faith they are converting to.

Perhaps someone may come to the firm belief, however they arrived at it, that another religion other than Christianity is the true faith, that Christianity doesn't "have it," and that they would be imperiling their salvation if they didn't leave their Christian church.

How and why are the issues to be resolved.

I don't know what your concern about the menorah-lighting is.

The Orthodox Alexander Men had a menorah and other elements of his Judaic background integrated in his Orthodox Christian and priestly life.

People belong to religious communities for various reasons other than, or in addition to, reasons of faith.

Culture has a lot to do with it. And in North American culture, going against the flow of the establishment is certainly in vogue.

Who knows why Christians reject Christianity? Lack of proper grounding as the esteemed Administrator suggests? It is a fascinating subject.

As is the episode in Russian Church history when even monastic archimandrites became secret Jews and worked to bring Russia to Judaism from within.

Alex

A soon to be released book to be published by Ignatius Press may be of interest. The book is entitled _Salvation is from the Jews_:

http://www.ignatius.com/MyAccount/ViewProduct.asp?SID=1&Product_ID=2135&TabID=1

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

It is strange that many former Christians convert to the Jewish faith. To me, I think it indicates they have an unhealthy understanding of Scripture and even the role of the Jews in the faith. I think there is an element of turning them into an idol, and then wanting in on it.

The reason I say this, is that the Jewish faith itself does not require anyone to convert. They do not claim to have exclusive connection to God, nor to be the only "true faith," nor the only path of salvation. They do not seek converts, because they think non-Jews can just as well find God in their lives; why do they need to become a Jew? They really aren't going to be a part of the family, and that is really what is important.

Yet, I think many who convert do not understand this, and think of Judaism in some sort of "Christian" viewpoint. "It's the only true faith left... so I have to go to them."

What can we do for Christians who find this temptation? I think they need to understand what the Jewish faith for the Jews really is. That alone might help.

Dear Henry (if I may call you by your first name),

Excellent points!

I don't mind sharing with you my own pet project to study why Christians convert to Judaism.

One hypothesis has to do with the "faith alone" viewpoint of Evangelical Christians.

The hypothesis says that the denial of "works" in Evangelical Christianity for salvation leads to a kind of "laziness" and "need to do something."

The 613 regulations of the Jewish law is therefore attractive as such, giving both direction and a certain amount of tangible, visible "security" in religious practice for that particular type of Christian orientation.

From the interviews I've conducted so far, this would seem to be the case.

Alex

Mexican,

//I find incredible to understand how some people can apostatize from Apostolic Christianity to Judaism. I also find incredible how people find that "normal" or "acceptable".//

They might not look at it as �apostasy.� You do.

//People who apostatize are jeopardizing their salvation, �//

What if they are not convinced that salvation comes through Jesus and/or His Church? Maybe their bad experiences in His Church proved to be too much of a mockery of Him?

//I can't believe how the famillies of these persons you have mentioned, still receive them as members of the community as if nothing had happened.//

So far, they are still Christians, but are only contemplating Judaism. I said nothing about their families. For you information, their families may not even be Christian. So this is not an issue.

//Now, from my conversations with Jewish religious people, a non-Jew is not that because of his religion but because he's not part of the People of Israel, so converting to Judaism does not make sense, even according to them.//

I have met a number of former Christians who converted to Judaism over the years. Some reverts were wrongfully baptized by others without their parents� knowledge. They only wished to return to their original faith. I remember watching All in the Family where Archie Bunker secretly baptized his grandson without his daughter and son-in-law�s knowledge. Prior to that, their pastor stated that he cannot baptize the child unless there is parental consent. This is also the practice of the Catholic Church, East and West. Aren�t those secret, non-parental baptisms null and void?

//Have these Apostolic Christians analysed the Apostolic Canons and the writings of the Church Fathers and the fierce condemnations given to Christian believers who approve this?//

No Christian is approving their thoughts of converting to Judaism. I posted this for your suggestion, not your condemnation. All the analysis in the world will not undo the harm inflicted on them by those who were responsible for their spiritual care. Many DO make the connection between the faith and the care they receive. As I wrote above, my own personal study of the Jewish Jesus only led me to a deeper conviction of his Jewish-ness. There is so much in a Byzantine temple that points to that. But again, it is EXPERIENCE that becomes the critical criterion in one�s faith journey. The Old Testament radiates with the theology of experience. If YHWH broke his promise and killed those who were faithful, then the survivors would not be convinced with any or all the legislation and pious teachings that demand faith in God. As God remembered Noah (Gen 8:1), God also remembers us. We, in turn, remember God in a special way through anamnesis, not amnesia. Experience for some is one of forgetfulness of responsible parties who should know better. Do you think that a shepherd killing his sheep - for no reason other than self-glory - would be approved by Jesus? What Apostolic Canon or Church Father teaches that?

God bless,
Joe Thur

Alex,

Have you had a chance to interview any of the former Catholics and Orthodox who converted to Judaism?

I do think the majority of converts certainly are from the Protestant traditions. For them, especially from the evangelical traditions, the re-emphasis of a set of rules for morality, I certainly can see as a draw. But I think behind that draw (why don't they become Muslim? Hindu? Buddhist? Zoroastrian?) comes from a notion, highly emphasized by many traditions, of the Jews as being specially chosen and unique. Yes, they were chosen to be the vehicle for the Incarnation, but they view the Jews in a special way beyond that. As if us Gentiles were an afterthought of God. So, if that is the case, why not go to the front and become a Jew.

History is seen to be: God is with the Jews. God gives the Gentiles a little thought. God goes back to the Jews. End of history. They also view, as you can see, that the "end" is near. So the time of "gentiles" is almost over; plus, with a lack of understanding of Biblical themes and Christianity, they still look to the Jewish prophecies and begin to look them as being necessary for fulfillment instead of already being fulfilled in Christ. It becomes an easy step to believe "well, Jesus therefore wasn't really _the_ Christ." In this way, Protestant eschatology often undermines the whole Protestant faith. Reinterpreting prophecies often removes a lot of what Christ has already done.

So if the time of the gentiles is over, where do you want to be? OF course, with the Jews! And since they really are correct, and the gentiles, even if given a bit of help by God, are still in the wrong, what better thing to do than to try to become one of the "special people."

Now, when I address issues of the calling of the Jewish race, I usually discuss how every group is specially called by God, everyone is God's chosen. Every nation can call itself such, and be correct. There is nothing wrong in saying the Jews are God's favored people, because they are. But so are all the gentiles as well. Each has a special vocation or calling in history (as the fathers would say, to the Jews prophets, to the gentiles philosophers). For the Jews, the real special calling was, as CS Lewis would say, their myths and people and interaction with God also was the chosen one to highlight the Incarnation. In this way, they are special and chosen in a unique setting -- but that, again, is always lost on those who convert to Judaism.

Ok, I know, I repeated myself a bit. But I still am trying to understand where the Church has gone wrong, in general, that we do see Easterners leaving to become Jews. I think it really has to do with the fact that even our catechesis of late has failed to address the significance of all people -- in fact, the sad problem of "nationalism" in Eastern Churches might be paralled by the converts to Judaism who continue to follow an "Eastern" nationalism, but just the nationalism is now Zionism.

Dear Cantor Joseph (CJ),

You raise a number of great points, as per your usual style and manner . . .

We don't have to go as far as Judaism with respect to families.

My family had squabbles over a cousin who married a non-Ukrainian Roman Catholic!

My uncle refused to get dressed for the wedding (held in a Ukie Church) on the day of.

We had to dress him ourselves, his body was limp and he refused to see reason - I'll never forget that.

He refused to acknowledge his sister-in-law and only grudgingly did so on holidays.

That cousin later died of cancer at the age of 40 and he had been attending an RC Church where he wanted to be buried.

But he didn't tell his mother (his father had since died) and there was heck to pay . . .

They wound up having TWO funerals for him, a real biecclesial experience . . .

And when the RC priest came down the aisle in Our Lady of Sorrows (how appropriate!) Church, one of my aunt's "old biddies" lunged at him with her fist - he ommitted to mention the mother's name in his funeral sermon . . .

Mexicano doesn't know how good he has it!

Alex