www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship The Kliros Comparative Byzantine Chant

I wanted to post on the Kliros section.

I am trying to do research on comparative Byzantine Chant

Wow ... it's difficult enought to pick one Chant style and know it - to take into account Greek Chant and the derivatives from that -

I've read that Gregorian Chant evolved from Byzantine Chants migrating North and then back down to Rome.

So it's an undertaking of huge proportions.

Has anyone ever studied this? Can anyone suggest a book on how Carpathian Chant compares to Greek Chant - if it even comes close?

Gregorian chant evolved from Old Roman chant, which was used by the Church of Rome from the seventh through ninth centuries. In the 7th and 8th centuries, it was heavily influenced by Byzantine chant (no surprise there, as many Popes were Greek), but gradually diverged into Gregorian chant in the 10th-11th centuries.

Haydukovich,

The best resource about current research on Carpathian chant currently is found here: http://irmologion.nfo.sk/

The direct link between Byzantine and Carpathian chants cannot be directly traced via the manuscript tradition, but David's analyses and comparisons are pretty insightful. In the 1960s, Johann von Gardner published a three volumn compendium that translated an "Southwest Russian" (ie Rusyn) Azbuka, and transcribed the signs into modern notation. It is very helpful in learning Znamennyj notation.

In Christ,
Adam

Adam, was this a two or three volume set? I know of the two volume set published in translated reprint by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, under the title Russian Church Singing. Just curious if this may be a different work, as I would love to see the Carpatho-Rusyn study.

The work to which I refer is not Russian Church Singing , it is different. Title is "Ein handschriftliches Lehrbuch der altrussischen Neumenschrift", with Erwin Koschmieder as co-author/editor. It was published by Muenchener Verlag der Bayerischen Akademie der Wissenschaft, Heft (volumn) 57, 62, and 68. The first part was published in 1963. It is not Carpatho-Rusyn per se, biut SW "Russian", which includes Kyiv and the regions west of there, as well as the mountains.

If you can find it, The Plainchant Tradition of the Southwestern Rus' by Sister Joan Roccasalvo is a valuable resource into the roots of Prostopinje and its evolution. I don't know if it is still in print, and used editions can be rather steep.

Actually, there ae about 25 copies available from various booksellers through abebooks. See here [abebooks.com]. The lowest-priced is less than $4 plus about $4 s&h, condition described as 'VG, As New'. The prices go up from there, but better than half of the copies are below $25.

Many years,

Neil

About 15 copies available currently on abebooks - all originating in Germany. Only 1 of the full 3 vol. set listed, running about $100 w/ s&h, but there are individual copies of each volume available.

I see 1 other bookseller there has the 3 listed separately, total about $57 with s&h and that s&h would probably drop by a few $ if you were ordering the 3.

See here [abebooks.com]

Many years,

Neil

So much for the stereotype of Jews driving a hard bargain. I paid $50 for my copy of Roccasalvo more than a dozen years ago, albeit it was in mint condition. What explains the present glut of what is, after all, a relatively rare and arcane book?

You can find videos of Old Roman chant on youtube. To my Roman ears, it sounds awesomely like Russian or Greek chant and very very different from Gregorian Chant (which I also love).

The first time I had to listen quite closely to hear that it was really in Latin, not Greek or a Slavic language!

Mozarabic Chant, similarly, sounds to me very much like Arabic Chant, except it's in Latin.

Stuart,

It seems to run in absolutely unpredictable cycles that defy any logical assumptions as to what drives them.

I regularly peruse abebooks (and alibris also, listings don't usually differ much, but occasionally one finds something in one and not the other), looking chiefly for material to fill in gaps in the directory's historical entries. Often, my searching is very general; other times I'll be after something very specific and find nada. A month or two will pass and the heretofore elusive specific item will suddenly be a glut on the market.

As to price, with some exceptions, the range is frequently extreme. With rare exceptions, I tend to buy at the low end because you'll find volumes similarly described (as far as condition) at both price extremes. My experience has been that West Coast and European sellers tend to price higher on EC/EO materials. I suspect it's because there's less familiarity with the subject matter and a presumption made that such texts are more esoteric or rare than is actually the case. (Let's face it, though, much of our printed material is arcane by the standards of the marketplace.)

I don't think I've had but one instance in which I bought at the low end and regreted it - and the expenditure was cheap enough that I just turned around and acquired a better copy for not much more. Too, you pretty quickly discover that you're buying from a source that you've used previously and with which you're comfortable as regards quality, reliability, etc. - and which tend to come into a lot of relevant material. Loome Theological and Frost Pocket Farms are two such.

It's a worthwhile (and pretty enjoyable) half-hour once every two weeks or so for me, though I might only make a purchase once a month. (Although I also check eBay, from time to time, I find abebooks and alibris to generally be much better use sources.)

Many years,

Neil

I agree. I got an outstanding deal recently on the three-volume Oxford Encyclopedia of Byzantium--a slightly used library copy in mint condition--for $90, which I thought was a steal. I ordered through Amazon, though the books came from a small on-line distributer called Zubal Books, who also sent me a nice T-shirt for free.

I was blessed to receive a copy when it was first published from my parish priest at the time. He ordered a copy when it came out and he purchased one for me as well. I'll be forever grateful. Then for 4 years had the opportunity to work closely with Sr. Joan at the University of Scranton. As a "student assistant" at the Center for Eastern Christian Studies I remember Sr. Joan involved in what was being promoted (although, sadly never came to fruition) as a joint effort between the BCC and ACROD for a common DL book with music.

Sdn. Christopher