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Henry,

They are still Christian though I never stated that that was the case since birth. I DID state that they had a very bad experience in both the Byzantine Catholic Church and the OCA. It was their experience that led them to conclude that the Church corrupted Jesus. I think their argument or reasoning was that one cannot take seriously those who cannot successfully market their sole product: Jesus.

They were quite turned off with the self-promotions, litanies of titles, and lack of care or concern. I won�t give the location or parish names because I really don�t know the entire story or the condition or state of their spiritual lives. All I know is that they are very sincere people.

And they really don�t care about beard lengths, proper headgear, long-winded titles, or whether their priests are wearing lace or silk �

I believe Geza Vermes was once a Latin Catholic priest who left the ministry and returned(?) to Judaism. His insights into Jesus the Jew (I believe this is also the title to one of his books) is fascinating, almost a breath of fresh air to the stale processions and ontologies of the Godhead. What exactly does ontology have to say about the Kingdom or Repentance? Both seemed to be the first and foremost themes of Jesus� ministry and teaching. But these are my own ruminations.

God bless,
Joe Thur

Dear Henry,

Yes, I have only come across one former Eastern Catholic who converted to Judaism.

There are Evangelicals who go back and forth between Christianity and Judaism - a number of the "Jews for Judaism" as I understand are Jews who became Evangelical Christians and then returned to Judaism.

I do think that the Hebrew Catholic Association and their work truly does allow for the expression of Jewish identity in their Catholic home.

There are many, many Jews in Russia who are members of the Russian Orthodox Church - there are many here in the OCA as my priestly friend tells me.

Ultimately, I think all Christians should have an expanded awareness of Judaism and the way in which it is our Mother faith - from which we came as believers of the heritage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And I think that Catholicism and Orthodoxy already does a good job at that over Evangelicalism and iconoclastic Protestantism.

And more can be done.

Alex

Dear CJ,

Well, I hope that any bad experiences you yourself have had in the BC Church won't turn you on to Zoroastrianism or anything like that.

Alex

Alex,

I'm a staunch Byzantine Catholic whose sin is putting Byzantine before Catholic.

CJ

Joe,

My next question is: let's say they did convert to Judaism. Or revert. What will happen when they have a bad experience in one synagogue? Try another tradition? And how about when they find problems there?

Certainly, I am not saying they are not sincere people. However, the problem of "I didn't like what I saw, it was too cold, the people were not caring" you can find that problem in any religious faith. If the reason one chooses a faith is for a social gathering, than they also might want to consider if they really want to be a part of a religious faith. This is not to say the social aspect is not important: it is vital. But when one encounters a weak social dimension to one's faith, or in one's church, one needs to ask: is that what it is all about.

Logically, it becomes an ad hominem. "They were bad, so they can't be right."

Dear CJ,

Jews are circumcized by the laws of their holy Moses.

BC's are circumscribed by the flaws of our episcopal mouses.

Alex

Henry,

//My next question is: let's say they did convert to Judaism. Or revert. What will happen when they have a bad experience in one synagogue? Try another tradition? And how about when they find problems there?//

You make a very good point.

//This is not to say the social aspect is not important: it is vital. But when one encounters a weak social dimension to one's faith, or in one's church, one needs to ask: is that what it is all about.//

I think that the social issue is not a weighty factor here. They are quite sociable people outside religious congregations to be worried about finding nice people at the temple, Christian or Jewish. The issue seems to be the Church�s corruption of Jesus and His message.

//Logically, it becomes an ad hominem. "They were bad, so they can't be right."//

That is another good point only confirming your first good point.

God bless,
Joe Thur

Dear Henry,

Well, certainly there are social thinkers, like Emile Durkheim, who believed that religion is ONLY about community and that faith is the worship of the values that derive from that experience.

It is a powerful need that requires a satisfactory answer in many people - up here our multicultural communities are strong for the same reason.

And I wonder how many people go to church all their lives without ever really "having faith?"

I was involved with a youth outreach ministry (in my youth).

We had a fellow come by to explain the Divine Liturgy.

And only "old folk" came.

We were disappointed from the outset.

But at the end of the presentation, one 80 year old gentleman got up and said, "I got so much out of this lecture tonight - I've been going to church all my life and now I feel I truly understand when the Divine Liturgy is all about!"

As they say, people shoot the arrows, but it is God Who guides their path.

Alex

Dear CJ,

You also raise a very good point, Big Guy!

How do you understand the "corruption" of Christ and His message, as you say?

Shalom!

Alex

HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR!

Another Alexian quippy quote to put in my book.

CJ

Alex,

I think our Byzantine faith is an excellent vehicle for promoting Christ. There are others who don't. Protestants may refer to Traditions of Men, but I always ask them where in the Bible is "altar call?" and where in the Bible is there a list of books to be considered Scripture? What Tradition of Man governed the canon of Scriptures?

CJ

Dear CJ,

I'm happy I amuse you!

So what is wrong with the Byzantine vehicle as far as your two friends are concerned?

Does it, in their view, need an oil change?

Alex

Dear Cantor Joe,

When I taught former Soviet Jews at a local Albanian Orthodox Church, I always stressed that the Church starts with Abraham and that taking up Christianity in no way implies rejecting their Jewish heritage.

In Christ,
Andrew

Alex,

Product wasn�t the same as what was documented on the receipt.

I tried to explain that there are always �cleric�al errors that we deal with in life. I myself have a few notes to share. Doesn�t mean that we never shop at Wal-Mart because the cashier was a dilly-brain. He or she was just a stupid cashier.

But I think there is some genuine love for Judaism in this case. The "not yet" theology of Christians waiting for the end times is no different then Jews waiting. Is Christianity nothing but an honor's class in waiting expectations?

God bless,
Joe Thur

Dear Thur:

I'm sorry if I offended you with my comments. It was not my purpose to mention you or "condemn" you as you wrote. When I said it was wrong to approve that kind of conversions I was refering to prelates as I clearly displayed in my examples.

Even when we have bad experiences in Churches I don't think it's enough reason to reject Christ, and I would ecommend to study their tradition first.

When I was like 14 i was kind of confused and I searched about many religions, I nearly "converted" to zoroastrism too. I found that none of these monotheistic religions, Judaism and Zoroastrism in particular, seek conversions. In a conversation with a Sefardite Rabbi, he told me that there was no reason for a Christian to become Jewish because it's a matter of Nation-Community and not of religion. He gave me examples about good non-Jews in the Old Testament, faithful to God who were equaly treated as part of "the People". I would say that the attractiveness of Judaism also resides in its aniquity, it's mystery. I thought that there were more resemblances of Christ times in a Jewish service than a Christian service.

At that time the only thing I knew of Christianity were the poorly celebrated Roman masses, some Protestant services, and Orthodox liturgies of my childhood when I only remember I had to stand up for hours while the other people taller than me would not let me se anything.

I would say more than a mater of faith, people choose ancient religions were God is more present, in services that still have the mystery of the supernatural world. It's quite unfortunate that some people did not find this in the Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic Liturgy. When the most sublime liturgy becomes earthy in the eyes of believers it means that something is not working. Maybe excesive use of vernacular language, westernized chants, I dont know.

Anyways, I enphasized the external aspects of religion. When I learnt about what Christianity teaches, the faith, I thought it was as mystical as the other religions that seem more attractive.

Now this is not the only thing. In my country the modern fashion is to become Muslim, and the Muslims don't have any interesting service with mystery like in the Jewish and Zoroastrian traditions. But somehow their religion has a very strong doctrine and faith which attracts people because of its agressiveness.