www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy Female Readers/Lectors in the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church

I particularly liked this brief excerpt from one of Fr. Deacon Patrick's posts. In it he quotes St. Basil and St. Gregory the Theologian:


"The Fathers often speak of the greater modesty required of women. St. Basil writes that 'in women�s life, more and greater modesty is required, as regards the virtues of poverty and quiet and obedience and sisterly love.' St. Gregory the Theologian praises his sister and his mother for their silence in church. Of his sister, St. Gorgonia, he says, after praising her wisdom, 'But who was less ready to speak, confining herself within the due limits of women?' Of his mother, he says, 'So also in the holy assemblies, or places, her voice was never to be heard except in the necessary responses of the service.' None of them approved of women readers. They never questioned the apostolic rule on silence for women in church. They gave different answers at different times on the extent of silence required, but they always understood the appropriate extent as keeping women from acting as readers."

Certainly, when it is needed. For example, in a situation where there are no men present an application of economy would be proper and even necessary.

But I do not see the present situation in parish Churches as requiring an act of economy.

That of course is not what we are dealing with on the parish level today; instead, allowing women to read the lessens merely reflects the laziness of men in our times. That said, as I see it, a priest should teach his congregation about the divinely instituted liturgical roles of men and women rather than simply choose the easy way out and accept the pagan norms of modern Western society. Our worship of God should be based upon the principles set forth by St. Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and not based upon what may be politically or socially convenient.

and accept the pagan norms of modern Western society.

Hua? Why is it always "modern Western Society", are there no evils in modern Eastern Society? And, Pagan?

Sorry Apotheoun, am totally not comprehending what you are trying to express, possibly Father Mark will have a better take on it.

Because modern Western society, whether you want to admit it or not, does see men and women as interchangeable.

I have no problem admitting that in opposition to this modern Western mindset I hold that the Church's liturgy should follow the norms set forth under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, and in the writings of the God-inspired Fathers. I find it strange that so far no one in this thread has taken it upon himself to try and prove from scripture, or the Holy Fathers, that women should be reading the lessons during the divine liturgy. Sadly, it seems that convenience trumps divine truth for many people.

P.S. - A point of clarification: By modern Western society I mean the modern American/European egalitarian perspective that promotes the idea that men and women are interchangeable; and of course this modern Western viewpoint even influences societies in Eastern Europe today. In other words, I am not referring to the different theological approaches of the Eastern and Western Churches that arose with the influence of Augustine and the later Scholastics. After all, the Medieval Scholastics would not find women reading during the liturgy to be an acceptable practice.

If my posts are unclear I do apologize. I have no problem understanding your take on the situation and it is pretty clear that we hold opposing views.

But that is your opinion about "Western" society Apotheoun, so, if I understand correctly "Eastern" society does not see men and women as "interchangeable"?

While I am not theologian I would rather have one of the priests on the forum answer the second half of your answer as I think that would be a more effective way to try and understand what you mean by convenience trumping divine truth.

I seem to recall though Jesus was strongly condemed many times too for doing things that were not considered the "norm" (healing on the sabbath, forgiving sins, etc).

Thanks for your thoughts

You may wish to belittle my "opinion" in that way, but the "gay marriage" movement proves my "opinion" is founded upon the concrete rejection of the archic and hierarchic roles of men and women by the Modern West. Do we really wish to import that confusion into our liturgical worship. St. Paul said that women should not teach or speak during the liturgical assembly, and I believe that he said that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, it is true that I cannot force you to agree with me on that issue.

Jesus also affirmed the archic and hierarchic roles of men and women, that is, unless you believe that St. Paul was not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

If you have evidence that indicates that the Holy Fathers allowed women to read during the liturgical assembly when men were also present, by all means post that evidence. I am more than willing to listen to what you have to say, and so if you can show that women reading during the parish liturgy is a Traditional practice of the Church post the evidence so that it can be examined.

Apotheoun, I did not belittle your opinion in any way, shape or form, I simply offered my view this is your opinion on "Western" society and asked you a direct question about "Eastern" society for which, you remained silent. I am not even going to entertain your comments that came after that as it has no bearing on the main title of this thread.

People are people all over the world and blaming the "modern west" for all the ills of the universe just seems a bit far reaching. Also, we are having a conversation, using the word force to agree with someone in said conversation really is not necessary, I respect what you say, you have a right to your opinion, this is America but I do not need reminders I cannot be forced to agree or disagree with an issue.

Can you tell me where Jesus affirmed these "hierarchic" roles...

Also, which church are we speaking of here?

I don't believe I have ever mentioned Eastern society, because sadly there is no such thing, at least not in a Christian context. The Eastern European nations are Modern Western societies, although they may be a little more conservative than Western Europe and North America (e.g., Russia is not likely to approve of "gay marriage" in the near future).

My use of the phrase Modern Western society is not a theological construct, but a political one. We all live in the Modern West.

Sexual confusion reigns supreme in the Modern West, which is why contraction, abortion, gay rights, and other immoral things, are approved of as virtues to be encouraged, and opposition to the idea that men and women are interchangeable is ridiculed as conservative nonsense.

That said, I do not want to incorporate that confusion into the liturgy by having women take on a men's roles.

Ah, OK, I get it now........

I suggest in my humble opinion if you wish to continue this line of conversation (especially with the intejection of Gay Marriage which I dont know how that fits into this thread and if Russia approves it or not has nothing to do with Female Readers/Lectors) we take it offline to a PM discussion.

I only brought up "gay marriage" in order to make it clear that I am not using the term "Modern Western society" as a synonym for the Roman Church or Western Christianity in general.

But with that out of the way I await the information I requested from the writings of the Church Fathers that supports the notion that women can act as readers during the parish liturgy, so that we can critically examine those texts and confirm that women acting as readers is a Tradition of the Church rooted in ancient times.

For purposes of this discussion, are we distinguishing between ordained readers/lectors and cantors, who also take the readings, in the absence of a reader or lector?

I am not.