www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy But deliver us from evil...?

Dear forum members,

Does anyone know why the Roman Catholic version of the "Our Father" ends with, "...but deliver us from evil...", compared to the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic version which ends with, "...but deliver is from the evil ONE..."? Why the difference? Which one is "correct"?

Thank You!

Sorry, "us" not "is".

Hello RussianCath:

Not sure I can answer your question but in my Byzantine Catholic church, the ending is "deliver us from evil" (RDL book published by the BC Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh, 2006) not from the "evil one", I do not believe I have ever heard evil one at the end even in some Orthodox churches I have attended in the past.

I would love to know more and know if any other churches follow this usage.

Thanks for comments!

IMHO, "deliver us from evil" is embedded in the American tradition. When we prayed the Lord's prayer in public schools where various denominations attended, this is the version which was prayed. And citing the 60's DL hymns and the RDL, we know how difficult it is to change a tradition.

Well we Roman Catholics say "from evil" because the Latin is "a malo." But that can certainly be interpreted as "evil" or "evil one" as well, the second interpretation is not as obvious from the Latin but is consistent.

However, I remember learning and reading that we do really pray for deliverance from the "evil one" who is a major source of the evils we are tempted to.

They are not really contradictory understandings of the prayer.

"Evil one" is probably more accurate if what I read was correct, but I will keep saying "evil" since that's the tradition.

In my *present* parish, we say 'deliver us from the evil one'. This is much more precise and closer to the translation from Greek...

To deliver from evil implies to keep us away from evil situations that might harm us, whereas the Greek implies to keep us away from the devil who is the source of all evil.

Can anyone actually post and explain the transliterated Greek? I'm not knowledgeable enough to do so.

Transliteration:

Pater h�m�n ho en toes ouranoes;

hagiasth�t� to onoma sou;

elthet� h� basileia sou;

gen�th�t� to thel�ma sou,

h�s en ouran�, kae epi t�s g�s.

ton arton h�m�n ton epiousion dos h�min s�meron;

kae aphes h�min ta opheil�mata h�m�n,

h�s kae h�meis aphiemen toes opheiletaes h�m�n;

kae m� eisenenk�s h�mas eis peirasmon,

alla rhysae h�mas apo tou ponerou.

So it seems the Greek, just like the Latin, could be neuter "evil" or masculine "evil one."

O Poniros, (aka: the evil one) is masculine.

In the Slavonic, it is lukavogo, which translates as "the evil one", masculine gender. I believe the reason the generic "protect us from evil" is so prevalent is a result of the west drifting away from the concept of evil personified.


For some reason the Forum will not let me use cyrillic script.

RussianCath:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!1

The Latin

"Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo."

has been translated very literally into English and it is tough to change something that is used by so many for so long and who don't agree on much of anything let alone changing such a common rendition.

The Latin construction really should read

"In order that we may not be put to the final test, deliver us from the Evil One."

When we look at the English word "evil," we have to understand that in the deep structure of the grammar, there can be an understood article that a native speaker does not need to see but understands is there--either "a" or "the"--and there is the possibility of a place word not expressed on the other side like "one." So it makes perfect sense to read "The Evil One" when one translates evil for malo--the Latin would probably have presumed that evil was not just some abstraction but was a person, a malevolent person.

The "et ne" construction is an obscure Latin grammatical construction that I came across in a very old Latin grammar given to me when I studied the language more years ago than I want to say. It's not often used and can be confusing in translation if one is not looking for it.

If you go to the online Clementine Vulgate, you will find this interpretation--I believe in St. Matthew's Gospel, but I will double check.

Bob

Alexandr,

Christ is in our midst! I tried using Greek script and the forum would not take that either!

I like your thought on the 'west drifting away from the concept of evil personified'. It seems that the original Latin is like the Greek, so it most likely *not* the RC West, but the Protestant west which translated it like this.

Hope you are having a blessed and difficult (LOL--don't the elders say that makes it a 'good Lent'?) Lent,
Alice

As to the OP, as another poster mentioned, "from evil" has been the traditional translation of the end into English since at least the 1662 BCP (the current translation is a slightly modified verson of that from 1928 - ref the wikipedia article on Our Father). I would imagine that the basic translation is even older than 1662, likely going to the pre-reformation years, though I don't have any material to prove such a thing.

And while the current translation is traditional, the Church of England did change "which art in heaven" in 1928 leading everyone else to change too, so the translation could change in the future. Were such a thing to happen, I would hope the translation would be for good reason, and it would be done with some coordination, i.e. be pan-Greek Catholic at the minimum. (speaking personally, I would also hope they address the issue of how to properly translate "epiousion.")

(PS: I also can't past Grek text, even though I've done so before...)