www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Filioque

Greetings all! i have been reading this forum for several months, but this is my first post.

i am not E.O., rather, i am a member of an orthodox Anglican church in the US. My background is Protestant, and my conversion to orthodox Anglicanism was recent. Since i just recently came to realize that Christianity started well before the 1500-1600s (sarcasm of course), i am curious about the filioque.

i do understand that it is the difference between the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father versus from the Father and the Son. However, i don't know where the practical implications of this affect our understanding of God. My concept of the Trinity is a very Western one, and i would like to know the differences that lie here (if they do exist, which i'm sure they do). Part of the reason i'm interested is i do think that an addition to an early church creed is highly suspect, so naturally i want to hear the "other side" (so to speak).

Please do forgive my hastiness... i just did a search on the filioque (duh - should've done that first), but if anyone cares to respond please do. i would love to have a dialogue on this for my own understanding and hopefully others as well.

Explain Orthodox Anglican, please. Does that mean you are under a bishop who is not part of the United States Episcopal Church? I had understood that some of the conservative bishops in Africa and Asia had set up missions in the U.S.

Hi there! i probably should say we (my parish) are orthodox Christians - however, this confuses people sometimes that we are E.O. so i usually say orthodox Anglican. Orthodox Anglican does have many meanings - however, we are still under a bishop in the Episcopal church. If you were to ask our priests or members, we would answer that we are members first and foremost of the apostolic and catholic church and secondly Anglican. Our bishop (Bishop Stanton of Dallas) is conservative, especially for the Episcopal church. i don't mean to speak for everyone, but we do acknowledge the authorities that God has placed over us and we are waiting for a decision later this year from Archbishop Rowan before making any kind of decisions. Personally (and i think i can speak for my church here), we would like to see a refutation of all the homosexual trends moving in the Western church (likely) and a refutation of the ordination of women (not likely).

(note - our liturgy and teachings have strong E.O. influences as well)

i would like to stay on topic with the filioque, however, so please do feel free to contribute.

Welcome to the forum! It is always our pleasure here to meet and greet new members and learn from one another.

A very simple explanation against the addition of the filioque is that the principle of the Trinity is the Father. Eastern churches see the filioque, which states that the Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son, as creating a double procession, and a double principle, a false dichotomy. Of course, I am speaking as a layperson. A more theologically trained person will come along soon and say it a little better!

I am interested in your church affiliation. Are you saying that your liturgy draws from the Eastern rites rather than the Western? Maybe we should start another thread. This interests me because someone else mentioned recently that one of the Lutheran Synods also uses a sung liturgy, similar to the Eastern rites. I would love to learn more about this.

Again, welcome! Peace to you!

Tammy

Grip,

Welcome to the forum .

The following document is from the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and was put forth as a clarification, at the direction of Pope John Paul, after one of his meetings with Patriarch Bartholomew

The Greek and Latin traditions about the procession of the Holy Spirit [praiseofglory.com]

Gerard Serafin has compiled a remarkable set of both contemporary and historical links on the Filioque question, citing both Catholic and Orthodox sources, at:

Filioque - And the Son [praiseofglory.com]

I'd feel guilty directing you there, rather than offering an explanation, but the collection of materials gathered there offers much more historical and contemporary understanding than I could ever hope to offer.

Many years,

Neil

the_grip wrote:
i am not E.O., rather, i am a member of an orthodox Anglican church in the US. My background is Protestant, and my conversion to orthodox Anglicanism was recent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Welcome to byzcath.org forum. I appreciate your question but leave it to those who can explain it better to reply as I see they are doing. There was an Orthodox Anglican Church in Spokane in our neighborhood when we lived there a few years ago. Most of the members of that congregation had followed an Episcopal priest from their Episcopal congregation to form the Orthodox Anglican congregation. I am wondering whether this is the type of congregation you are attending -- where some of the members moved en masse from another congregation??

My prayer is that you enjoy and learn from your participation on the forum. It is a great place to learn more about Eastern Christianity. Again, welcome aboard!

In Christ, <><


Porter aka Mary Jo..

I don't think we are putting you off, but filioque has been discussed to death on this forum. It seems like we just discussed that a few days ago on another thread. Like any forum, we have our very few who will argue anything for the sake of arguing, but the topic has been pretty thoroughly discussed. BTW, there was an Orthodox Episcopal congregation in Knoxville at one time. They left the regular Episcopal Church over homosexual ordination and women's ordination. That entire congregation converted to Orthodoxy and became part of OCA.

Not surprising to me at all... in fact, i feel as if i'm accelerating towards Orthodoxy. That's why i'm so interested in the filioque, or at least the practical implications of it.

Dear grip,

You will learn much here about the Christian East. The beautiful liturgies, icons, and theology come to us from the age of the apostles. The more I study, the more I love the East. Begin with a few recommended books: Bishop Ware, The Orthodox Way; Archbishop Joseph Raya, The Face of God. Others can recommend many which will help sort out your questions on the filioque and other subjects. I am currently focusing on Raya's The Eyes of the Gospel. It is exceptional in every way.

Have you been able to attend Divine Liturgy at an Eastern rite parish? If you are blessed to have one nearby, it is a treasure unequaled on this earth!

In Christ and the Theotokos, Tammy

We actually have an Orthodox cathedral here in Dallas.

http://www.stseraphim.org/

i've been meaning to go... hope i can soon.

Grip,
First before I launch out, welcome.
While for you to say that you personally are an orthodox in your teaching, is all well and fine.(If that is true.) It seems so subjective.
But to say that and still be under an Episcopal Bishop in an inacurracy.
We had some whacko at the liturgy this morning,who intoned her own prayer in the Catholic Mass. She prayed, We give thanks on the 30th year of the ordination of women in the Episcopal Church, and then left immediately.
It was a good thing or I would have verbally chastised her.

Stephanos I

Grip,

Several Eastern Catholic Churches have parishes in the Dallas area: Byzantine Ruthenian (Irving), Maronite (Lewisville), Syro-Malabarese and Syro-Malankarese (both in Garland). For addresses and phone numbers, see:

Unofficial Directory - Texas [crosslink.net]

Many years,

Neil

Stephanos,

Is there a reason why we can no longer greet someone who comes to our Forum in apparent goodwill with a modicum of the same, taking him at his word that he does so, unless and until he gives us reason to believe otherwise?

Grip has expressed his personal concerns about the recent actions taken by his Church and indicated that he is searching, I don't think he owes us more than that. Frankly, he didn't owe us that -his reason for coming here was to ask about the Eastern understanding of the filioque. He could as well have come to us as a sun worshipper, with a belief in cannibalism as the ultimate liturgical form; that he had an interest, a question, that was relevant to this forum's raison d'etre should have been enough to assure him an unqualified welcome.

My personal opinion, you owe him an apology for a posting that, in your own words "seems so subjective".

Many years,

Neil

Dear Irish Melkite,

Thanks so much for the link to Gerard Serafin's page. In particular, i found this link extremely insightful:

http://www.usccb.org/seia/filioque.htm

May God bless all of you... thanks for the help and patience in my learning!