www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why do Catholics or Orthodox convert away from the Church?

Me, I think any effort to help the truly needy and truly marginalized over a rough time, whether sprung from a religious or secular impetus is Son kissed. That there are some who attempt to abuse the expression of this good will is, unfortunately, hardwired into the experience of either camp . I accompanied a colleague on a mission of charity this morning; it appears the person requesting money for food, was possibly only hoping for money for money's sake .We don't do blank checks. This person requesting our assistance appeared to be giving fake info and we ended up unable to connect with her given her self defeating and baiting machinations. All the same, Carson, I can tell you that sturdy Catholic charitable societies may have soft hearts but not soft heads. There is already a good framework in place that does not look into fostering dependence, at least that's the case with the charitable endeavor I am associated with. And yes, it's Latin licked but it would be absurd to think their posture on matters of charity would or should cramp any eastern rite effort at charitable expression. Heartfelt Christian charity is Christian charity; no more; no less.

People leave the Catholic Church - Roman or Byzantine - because they are treated poorly and/or because the liturgy is less than fulfilling.

Look at the Ruthenian example with the Revised Divine Liturgy. No one wanted it. The bishops shoved it down our throats - liberal politics (especially gender neutrality), Roman theology from the 1970s that the Romans have abandoned because it chased people away, and music that sounds like the arranger was not a native speaker of English. And the people who complained about it were called disobedient, uneducated and told to leave.

1/3 of Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics have left. More in some parishes. Is it any wonder people would instead go to somewhere where they are treated decently? Or somewhere where the liturgy is not awful?

Jason, We have had no such alarming departures over the liturgy in our area. This decline is decades long and goes deeper than the changes in the liturgy.

For every camel's back, there is a last straw.

I was just talking about this today with my wife. Many in the Ruthenian Church seem perplexed with the lack of vocations. Vocations are a big theme lately.

It's amazing to me how they are unable to connect the dots.

She pointed out (being RC) that in the Roman Church it's a similar situation. The greatest growth is in the conservative (not a buzzword for Tridentine) parishes, and the exodus is from the lukewarm/liberal churches. People do not want a lukewarm liturgical life.

I feel the Ruthenian Church is very lukewarm these days. I find it difficult to earnestly pray for an increase in vocations, because it is no mystery to me why they are absent.

I think when the experience of the counter witness to the Gospel outweighs the witness to the Gospel, then things get dicey, as in the clergy scandals in Boston and elsewhere

Max,

I have run across dozens of people who say that is the reason they left the Roman Catholic Church. Do you think it has had a carry over to the Eastern Catholic Churches? We have had a few miscreants but they have received very little attention.

Because we're so small, we all know who they are.

And the RC church is what, 1,000X bigger, right?

There's a billion of them, and about a million of us.

I think there are 20 million + Eastern Catholics world wide, maybe more than that. The numbers for the US are well over 2 million.

Way, way high, Daniel.

I was just giving that as an obvious and egregious example. My point is when the priest or parish (parishes form priests probably more than the inverse)are a counter witness to the Gospel more than they witness to the Gospel, then people walk.

I try to do the works of mercy -

Visit the sick

Teach what I know

Bible study is a very good thing to do.

I am on a personal quest to become clergy - somehow - somewhere.

but what attracts people to a church (a church structure that needs $$$?)

I say what attracts is THE TRUE FAITH - practiced as intented.

people usually start coming to church out of need - they need healing - help spiritually - they FIRST need THE WORD OF GOD and the Liturgical necessities - and ATTENTION and LOVE.

once those needs are met - if they have the true faith - they will give automaticall- they will attend automatically - they will come to glorify The True God because they want to - not out of obligation.

one must believe in the actions of the Holy Spirit.

From a purely business perspective - when needs are met - attendance increases - donations naturally increase - without demands - without "appeals" sort of like taxes
ironically when the rate of taxation on business falls - tax revenues rise - and vice versa

Church finances are the same - and yet the churches continue to "grind" on the church goers to give $$ $$ $$ and more $$ without approaching it from let's minister to their needs - and not ask for $$

I wonder if the churches would prosper in they never asked for $$$?

When you minister to the people - they respond to it - by attending church regularly - by giving of their treasures.

I expressed this in another discussion - from the standpoint of the laity nearly worshipping clergy in strict obedience.

My point was - the clergy should serve the laity.
This is (in my humble opinion) what Christ taught.

The churches die in my opinion because they fail to meet the needs of their own communities because they are too busy filling their own needs (the needs of the hierarchy)

A renewal must occur - an entirely new way of thinking about clergy and laity -
Look at the ancient fathers - Nicolas - did he ask for $$$
most of their writings were to SERVE their people - to give them spiritual food!

Thank you for allowing me to express myself here.

I think you are mostly right. However, some instruction on giving financially and through service is itself spiritual food. Still, I almost completely agree with you. May God guide you to the vocation He intends for you.