www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Torn between East and West.

Part of me seems to be gravitating toward Eastern traditions, but my heart is clinging to Rome (I mean, I'm thinking of Rome right now and getting that "heart pain" that comes from being touched by grace, if you've ever heard of that.) I've been really let down by the way things are done at Roman parishes these days, and sometimes I have difficulty fulling embracing the Western way of doing things, but the things I'm drawn to in the East - except for cultural/aesthetic expression (i.e. style) - are present in the West, if less emphasized. I mean, it's not uncommon to hear of Western saints drawing from Eastern praxis, so why not me? I feel like God has told me to be both, if that even makes sense. A part of me is hesitant as well because I'm just now starting to actually feel like a Roman Catholic, right when I'm considering changing.

Maybe I can approach it like being "Western Orthodox" heh.

Heavenlyblack,
I'm a Roman Catholic as well, and I've actually come to believe that it's very possible to live the spirituality of the Eastern Fathers and yet be liturgically Roman. Think about saints like John Cassian. Actually, the spirituality of the Eastern Fathers, in my opinion, is the perfect antidote to many of the things wrong in the Western Church today.




or "Western Orthodox in Communion with Rome". Haha

HeavenlyBlack:

Christ is Risen!!

I've seen many posts like yours over the years I've been privileged to be a member here. Let me offer some advice.

First of all, it seems that too many folks get caught up in the externals and struggle with the MEANS rather than use the means to the real END.

A real relationship with Jesus Christ is the end we all seek. He is the beginning, the middle, and the end of all our lives. Whether we get that relationship built and deepened with Western praxis or Eastern praxis, the point is the relationship with Him. When we meet Him face-to-face, He won't mention that we used the rosary or the Jesus Prayer in our daily struggle to build this relationship. He'll either say "Well done, good and faithful servant, enter intot he joy of your Master," or "Depart from Me, I don't know you."

The "know" in this last is the key. The Older English meaning refers to an intimate relationship, analogous to the relationship of a man and woman in marriage.

IMHO, it is not necessary to be so wrapped up in being rigid in how one gets there, whether using Eastern or Western praxis. The key is to do the hard work praying when it seems, as Mother Teresa of Calcutta used to experience, that our praying and praxis is going into the darkness and having no effect whatsoever. It's in the resisting the temptation to abandon the project because we don't "get results," as our Western mindset seems to demand from any project undertaken.

Of course, it's important to pray in the mind of the Church and not get off into tangents that are dangerous spiritually, that can and do lead to nothing. So it's important to have a regular spiritual father to guide you. Christianity is not a "do it yourself" project. We are saved individually, but we are also saved within the context of a community. So find yourself a priest to confide in and stick with his advice.

A real danger is the "shotgun" approach where one flits from practice to practice because of novelty. That is spiritually dangerous because one needs to develop roots in the Faith. There is a good book on prayer entitled "Beginning to Pray" that points to the fact that one ought to be in a prayer rule or pattern for about 30 years. That takes discipline to stick with something that can seem to be monotonous, but it is the path to forming a deep relationship.

As I've said before, too, about other topics, an internet forum is not the place to get this type of issue resolved. IMHO, you need a flesh and blood spiritual father to talk to, to confide in, even to be your confessor so you can stay on track.

As for the way things are done in Roman parishes, well there are probably as many Eastern parishes with similar problems or their own set. A friend of mine told me that her cousin's Orthodox parish has developed a radically trimmed down version of the Holy Week Services because the congregation told their priest that they were too long and that they had other things to do than stand in church so much. There is no ideal parish, just lots of places where people are just trying to get that relationship right--and even places where people think that if they get the ritual half-way right that's all that's needed. Beyond them are the group that just asks "What's the difference?"

In Christ,

Bob

Indeed Christ is Risen!

BRAVO!!

I'd like to see the essence of Theophan's response posted as a sticky note at the top of every forum here.

Heavenly Black, our brother Theophan has offered you much wisdom here. Seek a spiritual father, someone who can counsel you face to face, someone who can know your journey and offer you support and discipline. A faithful relationship with a spiritual father, pursued with integrity and prayer, can offer more benefits than I can begin to enumerate.

Since this post is in the prayer forum:

O Lord and Master of our lives: Hear the pleas of your servant Heavenly Black. Help him find his way to You, who are at the center of all our desires; put the right teachers and guides in his life, and soften his heart so that he can open himself to them and submit himself to their loving teachings.

Grant Heavenly Black, o Lord, a spirit of patience and humility, that he may still his heart and hear your voice. Assure him always of Your love, and draw him ever closer to You. Guide him along the paths of prayer and worship that will lead him to Your Kingdom, where he can know the abundant tenderness of your mercy.

How do I find one though? That's honestly part of my problem - I desperately want someone to help me and guide me but can't find anybody. I've talked to priests but they usually aren't a lot of help. I don't have any Catholic family or friends, and spiritual directors... I don't even know if people still do that in my neck of the woods, apart from joining a secular order to get one. I mean, I know the answer to the problem but trying to fulfill it is just another one!

I mean, I love the idea. I *want* a guide. It's just that I'm not sure it's even possible. And what if I can only find an RC one?

Priest usually give bad advice or don't really want to talk about things in depth. I need a lot of handholding due to the issues I have and really don't know if there's anyone out there who can help.

HB,

Bob and Alicia have both offered excellent comments and I agree with their advice. Let me digress just a bit though and offer a few thoughts on how you might help yourself in this endeavor.

In one of your other threads, you asked about St Nicholas in Lorain. As Henery has posted there, they are giving tours of the church this coming Sunday, from 1-2pm, as best I remember. The priest will be there. I suggest that you go.

As I'm certain that Father will be busy with the tour and probably is already pretty heavily committed for a Sunday afternoon, I suggest you leave it at introductions, but ask if you might call during the week and make an appointment to sit down with him for an hour. Hopefully, you'll find yourself comfortable enough with him and he with you that you can start to forge a meaningful and ongoing spiritual relationship.

I don't mean this to sound harsh, and I know that you've already described some of the issues in your life that play into your concerns and uncertainties, but, ... you have to make a concerted effort on your own part and not expect that this will all happen easily.

To say that priests 'usually give bad advice' or don't talk about things in depth are unfounded generalizations. That you don't like the advice or demand a level of time and attention that exceeds what can reasonably be given are more likely explanations.

My youngest son has ADHD and autism manifested in Aspberger's Syndrome. I know very well that 'talking about things in depth' for him can be mind-numbing for those to whom he's talking. The level of depth that he sometimes seeks in a single conversation is unrealistic for most listeners on most occasions. I suspect that something like this may feed into your perceptions of priests as being unwilling to discuss things in depth.

My son is now working on trying to break up such discussions into managable components that can be a subject of a 'conversation' versus a monologue or a filibuster. One cannot explore the entire subject of spirituality in a single session, nor can one fully and completely plumb the depths of most any other topic of a religious nature.

Conor (my son) is finding that he gets more meaningful answers from people when they are not overwhelmed by him. Might I recommend that you try something similar. You may discover, as he currently is, that you have sometimes missed answers that you seek because you don't allow yourself time to think through what has been said to you in response to queries - instead you are on such a roll that you don't hear the answer or don't allow yourself time to contemplate its full meaning or its nuances.

Prayers for your spiritual quest and the peace of your mind and heart in pursuing it.

Many years,

Neil

Sorry, I was unclear. I wasn't trying to paint all priests with a broad brush, but I have had some bad experiences like coming to a priest about my doubts and having him tell me to just forget about them and go from the heart. If you know what us Autistic people are like, you know that we don't work in that "direction". (Of course, he probably doesn't know that to be fair.) I'm just tired of people trying to invert my way of thinking. When I go to the Roman parishes in town the focus is on everything I have a hard time with, and they notice it. But yeah, if I can't wrap my head around something I get stuck and hard. Sometimes I even have a hard time wrapping my head around faith itself, and in the case of Roman spirituality I found the diversity bewildering, and the theology too abstract. Putting it into practice became a nightmare for me. It doesn't help that theology is my "special interest" if you know what I mean by that. But all this is why I desire a dedicated someone to lead me by the hand. Your advice is good though. I certainly understand that my expectations are too high and that I've been overwhelming these folks. I've learned to filter myself for the most part, it's just that a part of me is lonely and troubled and wants to dump all this on somebody so-to-speak - I was separated from my closest friends a few years ago and haven't made any new ones... just don't know how w/o work, school, and a lack of peers at church. I still talk to them online and on the phone but it's not the same. It's a lot easier when someone is helping carry my burdens. I know that I haven't been trying hard enough to find that someone though. Of course, I'm not thinking that spiritual direction will be enough - obviously I need therapy too and I'm already "signed-up" for it, I'm just waiting for a phone call and the date.

Oh, and about St. Nicks, I've already been there a few times and spoken to the priest. He seems like a very holy man. Unfortunately I failed to filter myself the first few times I spoke to him and probably made a horrible first impression. I've learned since, and I'll probably be apologizing to him sooner or later (I haven't been to church in a month or so due to my PTSD acting up - one of my meds failed on me and I'm working my way up in dosage on a new one.)

Actually, this whole post is probably a failure to filter myself (!) But hey, at least you know I'm honest - if even to a fault

HeavenlyBlack:

Christ is Risen!!

I think from the things you've said in this thread that you may be expecting too much form one session. The Faith journey is a building process. Too many people think they can take a shotgun approach to it and get things settled in a week or two.

My own journey has taken me 46 years and I'm not sure that I'm halfway there. But I keep on going. There will be doubts, there will be struggles, and there will be tears along the way. But you must start and continue. There's also the temptation to jump from priest to priest and that only begins the process over again from the beginning. Each priest is different, each has his own gifts, each has different inspirations from the Holy Spirit. You must give the one you choose a chance. I've had spiritual fathers for as long as 15 years until they were transferred. The other side of the coin is that you need to learn about the priest himself as you work through sessions. A priest is not some infallible answer-giver. He struggles, too.

So take a deep breath, find someone, and make up your mind that this is a journey, not some instant set of easy answers. The spiritual life is about struggle and suffering linked through the Covenant of Baptism to the Lord's Passion and Death to a Resurrection that begins now but continued into eternity.

Bob

Bob, if we lived closer to each other, and if I didn't already have one, I'd ask you to be my spiritual director. Such wisdom and grace flow from your words...

How do you live eastern at a western church? Sounds antithetical to a shared corporate spiritual life .

Dave,
Christ is Risen!

Here's just a few of my thoughts. I think what I was trying to say to HeavenlyBlack, who seemed distressed at whether or not he's meant to switch to an Eastern church, is that just because someone is drawn to the spirituality of the Eastern Fathers doesn't always mean they are obligated to switch to an Eastern Church. There have been many Western saints who were influenced by the Fathers of the East and incorporated that into their own spiritual life. In fact, that's exactly how Western monasticism was born. Also, Vatican II's document on the Eastern Catholic churches calls the spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches "the heritage of the whole church of Christ". I try to keep these things in mind when I feel frustration about my own situation.

For me pesonally, the monastic spirituality of the Eastern fathers is what I feel most drawn to. I would love to join an Eastern parish, but it's not realistic for me in my situation to get to one on a regular basis. I hope one day that may change, but until then I try to learn as much as I can and read and study the Eastern fathers and Orthodox monastic writers, pray with my Byzantine prayer book, asking God to help me in all this. I agree that the lack of common worship with others who are spiritually like-minded is a serious missing link, but I've also heard of many Eastern Catholics who are living far away from any Eastern parish and choose to go to a Roman parish rather than an Orthodox one. So it seems that if they're able to do it, it can be possible.

DesertMan,
Thank you! That was encouraging.

Have a blessed day.
Dave

Dave:

Christ is Risen!!

Actually it's not all that difficult at all. I've done it for many years because of the distances to either an Orthodox or Eastern Catholic parish. I use an Orthodox prayerbook, the Jesus Prayer each evening for an hour, read The Desert Fathers regualrly, and other Eastern books.

In my particular parish, there is no real "corporate" anything. We have a Centering group that does not invite "outsiders" into its activities; ditto, the Charismatic group. There is a traditional group that meets for rosary. But none of these groups advertises its activities so if you're not in the loop, you wouldn't know they exist. Outside of the weekend Mass schedule, there is little corporate anything. We used to help with the fund raisers for our school, even after our children were graduated. Then one year we were challenged as to why we were there since we didn't have any children in the school--haven't been back and don't support their efforts anymore either.

Essentially, parishes can be large families--like the one we belong to used to be when we joined--or they can be or become collections of little groups, each with its own turf. In this latter case, people pass each other like ships in the night. So one's spirituality has little to do with one's corporate identity or membership.

At the end of the day, I think my departed father's advice is the best. He used to say he didn't care what a man did on Sunday morning; it was how he lived his life the rest of the week that mattered. That isn't a statement to support syncretism, but to point to the essence of the Christian life we aspire to. As St. Seraphim of Sarov said, "The point of the Christian life is to acquire the Holy Spirit of God." I think he's spot on.

Bob

Dave,
No problem! Although keep in mind that there may be some Orthodox who would heartily disagree with everything I've said. That's the impression I sometimes get anyway.
Have a blessed day yourself!