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He made changes, early on, that presumably reflect his preference and view as to the leadership needed to run the Archeparchy. This was not characterized here (at least not yet) as "cleaning house".

What would people be saying a few months from now if he made no changes whatsoever (which seemed to be the presumption of many, as stated in this and other threads)?


What is "singable music", and how does that concept relate to Prostopinije? We have a chant tradition, not a music tradition.

If one has ever tried to learn Byzantine (Greek) Chant when one approaches it from a Western framework and point of view (as many do, myself included, given our education and training), it seems rather foreign indeed. Yet, when mastered and done correctly, it is an extraordinary expression of love for and adoration of God.

FWIW - I don't think anything that the Eastern European hierarchs heard in Pittsburgh on the 18th struck them as overtly odd, in all honesty. Not to say there are not what many would classify as "rough spots" with some of the current settings ...


Again, other than the overt insistence on gender inclusivity in language, what "politics" are evident in the RDL? Surely many would agree that a lot of "politics" were involved in the making, but what other than the nature of the translation and adapted language reflect "politics in liturgy"?

It is lamentable that this has driven you to consider leaving the BC Church, and we pray that if this does happen, you end up finding a spiritual home that is suitable for you and your family. That said, I would suspect there are other issues beyond the RDL and the defects associated with it (not at all saying it is without flaws) that are driving you away. Perhaps you can have a meaningful, private discussion with a BC priest in your are whom you trust (there must be at least one in the greater Pittsburgh area) who can help you with your discernment.

Christ is risen!

The latter, the "need" as you've described it, and as defined by the Catholic Church as alluded to in Archbishop William's first official and public remarks, is precisely what the New Evangelization is meant to address - a need for renewal first within the Church, by it and its faithful.

Nelson described it as "need" although I agree with the description.

Every church could and has called for "renewal". Met. William's comments were admirable, and I think that most of the heirarchs in attendance would agree and say the same about their own churches.

I didn't see anything that spoke to the issues we are discussing, and believe me I was looking for it. I took his comments to be addressing the technological age that we live in, and the struggle of asserting our faith in society's culture. What we are talking about here is the Church's culture.

Personally, I could not agree more. The process itself was divisive, and damage was done (as is evident from the comments of many here, with justification). Yet, as I stated earlier, no matter what any of the current and prior hierarchs at the time said afterward, it all went down and went through with their approval. I still wonder what drove this result more than anything.

I too am a father of three terrific kids, and all of this was a big issue for me recently. I moved to an area near a long-standing, well known BCC parish, yet arrived to find it almost dead, with padlocks ready. That course was reversed entirely by then Bishop William and the efforts of a dedicated priest, one who was new to the area and the parish, and thus had no "skin in the game" so to speak, other than to simply do the right thing. The parish has enjoyed a bit of its own renewal and revival, and will hopefully continue to do so, but it takes the will of the people - the faithful parishioners - first and foremost.

The situation here was so bad that I could no longer take my children there, in the darkest days. ECF classes were cancelled. First Penance was eliminated, not just the semblance of a Latin-like First Holy Communion, but the preparation of the children itself for the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The environment was becoming openly hostile to the formation of the children of the parish, in general. The result would have been the permanent loss of this generation and those to come.

That said, I could not bring myself to join the very vibrant local RC community where my kids have many friends, nor could I turn to Orthodoxy, although many nearby possibilities existed. Neither seemed like the right answer. So we stuck it out until then Bishop William and our new pastor recommitted to the community. I dare say that if the many long-time faithful who ignored all signs and overt messages to go elsewhere (and there were many) did not do the same, there would no longer be a BC community here. We are thankful that is not the case. But, it started with the will of the people ...

Perhaps I give Archbishop William a little more promise than others as a result of this witness and experience, but he's earned it in this case.

Actually, when you write down the notes in a book, connect the words to the notes in a specific way, and tell people to sing it that way, and no other way, or else, you don't have a tradition at all. You have an arrangement. It's dead as a smelt.

One idea, brought up long ago, was to have all the cantors in the Metropolia submit all their arrangements to be collected and collated in a single volume, which would have given the cantors a wide range of examples on which to draw for inspiration. After all, for Prostopinje to be a living tradition, it needs to be dynamic, to adapt and evolve as it is passed down from cantor to cantor, each of whom has to deal with a specific parish of varying vocal capacity and tastes.

That idea was torpedoed by a late bishop, who proceeded to denounce those who had come up with the idea, and who disciplined the lector who offered to assist in the collection and collation process. Apparently nothing good can originate with the laity. After all, if we're so smart, why aren't we bishops (or at least priests). "Filthy peasants, go back to your hovels and do what you are told."

So, now we can see what good comes from deferring to our betters (bowing head and pulling on forelock in truly deferential manner).

When I left, I told my priest why, in no uncertain terms. He looked sad. He told me it's my duty to obey the bishop. I said, "Not when the bishop is wrong". At least he had the integrity not to call me ignorant--but then, he's a pretty smart guy, and I think he knew precisely what kind of product the RDL was.

"If one has ever tried to learn Byzantine (Greek) Chant when one approaches it from a Western framework and point of view (as many do, myself included, given our education and training), it seems rather foreign indeed. Yet, when mastered and done correctly, it is an extraordinary expression of love for and adoration of God."

Made the transition seamlessly in less than a month. Nonetheless, arranging Prostopinje (or Byzantine chant) for English is a difficult art, particularly if one intends it to be sung congregationally. Just how poorly we have been served can be heard by comparing the manner in which David Drillock and Mark Bailey have arranged the corpus of Russian chants for English, or how the Boston Byzantine Choir has done the same for Greek and Melkite Chant; or Archangel Voices for the whole spectrum of Orthodox chant traditions. Clunky does not begin to describe how the music for the RDL sounds (of course, it's not helped by the banality and awkwardness of the new text).

In any case, why settle for one setting (and why Boksaj, whose compilation represented Prostopinje as used in just one cathedral at one time), when there are many talented cantors capable of working with the whole tradition? It's interesting to hear choirs and congregations from the Carpathians and Slovakia: their music is much closer to the music we used to sing, because, as a living, oral tradition, it continued to evolve, while Boksaj's music, once set into print, became a museum piece. We should have accepted the continued evolution of Prostopinje in English, into an authentically "American" chant, rather than trying to pickle our singing in formaldehyde. We could have had (to paraphrase Jaroslav Pelikan), "the living music of the dead"; we chose instead "the dead music of the living".

Stuart, I have no way of knowing and it doesn't really matter anyway. Whether within wedlock or out of it, those folks are acquiring majority status. Non-Hispanics here would do well to get used to it and adapt themselves accordingly.

My point is: choose life if you want a future.

By the second generation, their birth rates is approximately the same as native-born white Americans.

If you want to examine fertility trends in various countries, here is an excellent little graphic tool that allows you to see different countries going back to 1800: Gapminder World [gapminder.org]

Note that the fertility rate in the U.S. has been falling continuously since 1800, but appears to have stabilized; the fertility of other countries begins to fall as soon as industrialization begins. North or South, East or West, Catholic, Protestant, Anglo or Hispanic, Asian or European--same story everywhere.

And it began long before the Pill, so you can't blame that.

JJP et al.,
I think that historical knowledge is beneficial. However, keep in kind that understanding how the RDL evolved, you need to factor in the complexity that there was a liturgical commission, the ruling bishops, and an office in Rome. In one sense, which particular bishops, commission members, and folks in Rome did what components, who expressed concerns or simply had other concerns is something that goes to the level of personal motivations and other things that are the matter of speculation, by and large.

In another sense, of course, the bishops are our shepherds, and they are all giving their stamp of approval to the RDL.

Going back to my own parish again, our parish priest was on this musical and liturgical commission, and your parish priest (to my knowledge) was not. As you have referred to our pastor as a model priest, I would ask you to consider whether that was connected to the rdl, or not. Perhaps it's not directly connected.

I appreciated hearing your testimony of being non-denominational, this was my own path to the Apostolic Faith, from the age of 15 to 21. I would only say that in having visited 9 parishes within our eparchy and others outside of it, I actually was refreshed to see the consistency of the parish life, even if the troparia and the like were sung at different pitches and tempos. One can spot who is an old 'baba' in the parish, who is a zealous convert (mirrors included), and the like. Sure, sometimes things are more vibrant just in terms of what services are offered, but the same heart and soul which is nourished by the Divine Eucharist and the prayers pervades our Church. So I would say that if priestly zeal was truly ineffectual, we would not have had revivals and the like throughout Church history. We should thank God when it is found, as was attested by Metropolitan William's work as Bishop of Passaic in a post above, and in our own priests. And ultimately, we should seek it among our own lives.

{And as a side bar, the musical criticism that our chant is not 'singable' must be considered alongside the fact that musical changes are difficult to deal with when there are years of a different practice. Additionally, the idea that we are told to remain silent and never use other versions of hymns bears a falsification at the enthronement of our Most Reverend Metropolitan William even. The Trisagion used in that video is not in the Green Faithful's book. So the idea that our RDL has made new melodies verboten is disproven even with our own Metropolitan's enthronement, who sang the second repeat of the Trisagion in Greek.}

Anyway, my point in going to our particular parish life is because if there is any correlation then between the RDL and fervor, it is that the parishes with an involvement in the rdl are faring better as a result of it. I don't actually feel that this is a connection that is true or should be made, but I'm trying to emphasize that people can produce arguments through a selective analysis of the data.



Regarding your translation concerns, I think the ideal is to teach children that poor prayers are expressed with different words. Even in vespers and matins there is the use of the word mankind. Us all is less delineated than mankind, but if you think about the spanish that you shared, humanidad is just as gender neutral (pero sabemos que nuestro idioma tiene el concepto del hombre como lider). So the solution to concerns about gender neutrality is to not teach it. Heating the phrase us all does not teach gender neutrality.

Regarding catechism consistency, at times I think that this is inevitable. We'll always have some Roman kids who come to the parish and talk about things like purgatory and the rosary and the like, and I think that's an occasion for more catechesis and mutual understanding. That we have to be hermetically sealed as Eastern is not realistic in a pluralistic country, but nevertheless I share your concerns about a text that would imply that we were never Orthodox. I have never noticed something of the sort from the God With Us Publications, and in our own parish in the teen ECF course, we actually use an Orthodox text, which has led to us discussing our history, with the formation of the sister parishes in ACROD and the OCA, as well as the broader sense of our union with the Orthodox, testified so beautifully by the exchanges of the kiss of peace at our events, including the enthronement of Metropolitan William.

So to sum up, JJP (et alios), I feel your concern for consistency, and can only hope that we as Southern California Byzantine Catholics can do more to get together and encourage each other. Thanks for taking the time to read all of this, and I pray that the Risen Christ will strengthen us to walk more according to the truth.



In XC,

J. Andrew

,
What difference will that make when the culture of, as you say, native-born white Americans, will have extinguished itself before two generations are up?

Stuart, I do not doubt your experience and witness, and value your insights and opinions on many subjects, this one included. In the end as I understand, you voted with your feet, and I'm glad you found a happy home among the Melkites whom I respect greatly. It does seem from what you have shared that your decision was driven by more than the mere prospect of living with the RDL, as was the case with other notables from what I have read, heard and witnessed first hand. This is tragic, and does sadden me personally as a remaining member of the BC church.

As you may recall from some of my initial posts here on this forum, the RDL is (and remains) a mystery to me in many ways as well, and I do not mean to defend it. As a cantor who was trained by one of the old masters while in a Cathedral parish setting, I still find a fair number of RDL settings to be awkward at best. In an attempt to restore some of what was presumably lost, we seemingly disregarded many of the techniques that could have created a better result when matching melodic patterns of Prostopinije to new English text (irrespective of the integrity of such). That those who, from proven experience and after years of well-recognized accomplishment, were in a genuine position to comment on such intelligently were routinely ignored when making suggestions is sad, at best. This much I experienced first hand, so I certainly do not need to be convinced.

As I have confessed previously (in some old threads), my level of scholarship on related subjects precludes me from commenting intelligently on either the (i) the consistency of the text of the liturgy as compared to reliable sources in original language or (ii) the translation used. On the former point, it is equally sad that much good insight and scholarship on the subject was also seemingly ignored. On the latter, I can only share how awkward it has been once again this Paschal season to reflect on the Myrrh-Bearers and the Paralytic, who apparently are no longer women nor a man, respectively.

No one could change a person's feelings. But, if change is to come, we could hopefully exchange here and amongst ourselves who remain in the BCC some specifics behind our criticisms, preferably those that can lead to responses by the laity that have some reasonable chance of success.

Irrespective of the RDL, there have been many forms of neglect in the Church of my fathers. I have witnessed many of them in my young lifetime, some of which actually turned me away from what I thought was a genuine vocational calling. I can remain bitter about that, but understand now that this was God's plan, and my calling was elsewhere both within and outside the church community. But I can look back at some of them and know that they were indicative of problems far greater than the RDL, and that they were more likely the cause of the exodus seen in the past two decades, in particular.

Let me be very candid with you and everyone here, so as not to be misunderstood. I honestly wonder more than occasionally (at least weekly) whether or not the BC church will exist by the time my young children become parents, and whether or not I should be taking them elsewhere to another faith community. But if we all thought this and all chose this sometimes seemingly logical path, the BCC would certainly be no more.

Somehow, I just can't live with that as a good end result, either.

I'd like to believe that others who also remain, thought they may fervently voice their dissatisfaction with the status quo, somehow deep down feel the same way.

Maybe it will help to pull back a bit.

The conversation began with my inquiry as to the roles, quotes, timelines, etc of the development of the RDL in the Ruthenian Church.

There was resistance to that line of questioning.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone to be unhappy with their church. J. Andrew, you seem genuinely blessed and that is a wonderful thing. You asked me questions, and I answered them. Regarding your points about the Spanish translation, I would rather address in a new thread as I have thoughts but don't want to create a tangent. The point is that "humankind" if you will has been excised from the liturgy for political reasons, and it doesn't sit well with me.

You never know how the future will unfold, but I am fortunate enough to consider an Eastern Catholic alternative that I think will allow me to worship liturgically without the need for strength or encouragement to get through.

To get back on point, I think a full accounting is not only warranted, but even if uncomfortable, is a greater benefit to the church than avoiding difficult questions.

Plenty of decisions made by the Catholic Church have caused controversy. These decisions are supported by a great wealth of documentation, evangelization and education. The Ruthenian Church owes its faithful the same, and asking for this isn't something that need be apologized for.

These are the two questions which I still ask myself regarding the RDL.

I have read some of the published documents which came from those involved with the liturgical commission, and keep coming up with one answer: the Boksaj Prostopinije was the youngest, most comprehensive collection of chant settings available, and knowing that it reflected aspects of our inherited tradition, we went with it as a baseline, in the absence of something similar and more recent. I could be dead wrong, but that's how it seems.

JJP,
One source for reading about the liturgy, in addition to the more personal interactions that I've sent in a private message, would be www.davidpetras.com [davidpetras.com]

He is the only commission member or bishop that I know of who has written about this, to my knowledge.

In XC,
J. Andrew

Not a bad suggestion, but I would note that the most detailed information on Fr. Petras' site is a response to the book written on the subject of the RDL by +Archimandrite Serge Kelleher of blessed memory, who also frequented this Forum. An appreciation for his book and commentary is recommended to fully grasp some of Fr. Petras' response.

There was also a document published by Prof. Thompson of the commission, which can be found here [metropolitancantorinstitute.org], on the use of the Bokshaj Prostopinije in the U.S, as a source of reference for the RDL.