www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology phyletism vs catholicity

I'm trying to understand how a EC Eparchy can say that they belong to the Catholic Church and at the same time demonstrate a strong incline towards ethnicity. To me it seems strange to hold both catholicity and phyletism together.

Any input from theologians or EC faithful?

Depends on what you understand Catholic to mean. In the West Catholic is usually associated with meaning "Universal" in that the church is open to everyone willing to accept the faith. Certainly EC and OC of various localities fit that bill.

However, from an Eastern perspective the word Catholic has a different understanding than the generic "Universal". The Eastern Church have historically understood that Catholic means “whole, complete, lacking in nothing.” thus we have the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." In this understanding each local church is "lacking in nothing" for individuals to attain salvation. This is a notion that I believe most EC and OC would claim despite tendencies to be tribal in nature.

Christ is Risen!!

The same way that a person can think of himself as Catholic and use the measure of that Catholicism the liturgy, spirituality, and customs of the Latin Church. Certainly our western outlook is as ethnic as any other.

The living out of the Catholic Faith is not tied to any one way of doing so. Eastern ways of living out the Apostolic Faith are as valid as Western. The fact that the Eastern peoples seem to have incorporated the living out of the Faith into their daily lives to a greater extent than Western people should not be seen as ethnic as much as our not doing so should be seen as an impoverishment in our lives in Christ.

Bob

Francois must be too young to remember when cities were organized into ethnic neighborhoods, each one of which had its own Roman Catholic parish, each one of which had a distinct "flavor" or style of the worship. You had Italian parishes, Irish parishes, Polish parishes, German parishes, Czech parishes, Puerto Rican parishes and so on. In small towns, the situation was repeated, even though the people lived next door to each other, so that you might find a Polish parish and an Irish Parish across the street from each other, and the people of one church would never think of going to Mass at the other church, unless their priest got sick, or they were invited to a friend's wedding (or funeral).

People self-organize, seeking out those with backgrounds and interests common to their own. For immigrants to this country, that kind of solidarity helped them climb up the socio-economic ladder. For the Church, which was at the center of these neighborhoods, it provided a bond that helped strengthen and preserve the parishes. When, in the sixties, these neighborhoods began to disintegrate with out-migration to the suburbs, and the Church deliberately adopted a blander "American" identity, the kind of Catholic solidarity that once existed disappeared with them. Now, with the creation of large Hispanic neighborhoods in cities and towns, you're seeing the resurrection of ethnic Roman Catholicism.

As a side note to what happened when the post-conciliar Church's ideal of "universal" worship crashed into the reality of ethnic Catholicism, out in East Texas there were large enclaves of Czech Catholics who built large and beautiful churches and who retained much of their Bohemian culture, including singing hymns in Czech. One day in the early seventies, the old priest at one of these parishes died, and was replaced by an eager young priest right out of seminary, burning with zeal for liturgical reform. Arriving just before Christmas, for his first homily he lectured the congregation on how this was America, this was an American parish, and that in America we all speak English, and will sing American hymns, and it's time to put away this quaint Bohemian baggage and get with the program.

Christmas eve arrives, the congregation files in, the priest stands by the altar, and a great, big Bohunk farmer stands up in the pew and begins singing Narodil se Kristus Pan. Another farmer gets up and joins him, and then their wives, and then the whole congregation is singing the traditional Czech carol at the top of their lungs.

Father America departed the parish soon thereafter.

Stuart:

Christ is Risen!!

There have been some interesting things happen in my diocese when formerly ethnic parishes were forced to merge. One newly formed parish needed police at the Masses for awhile to keep the number of fights down. It seems that the first time someone made a comment about "you people in our church" things got really nasty.

The parish I grew up in was an Americanized one from the last century where all the ethnic groups were forced into one parish because "we're all Americans now." The problem continues to be that each group tends to stick together and the reset of the parishioners are "outsiders." The reaction from one group when the pastor allowed me to serve was downright unchristian--they wanted to know by what right a young man with a Swede name was allowed in the sanctuary. When fundraisers were done, the Italians had their fundraiser and everyone else stayed away. So much for no phyletism in the parish.

Among the more elder parishioners, there used to be a complaint by the Germans and Irish over why the priest allowed Italians and Polish people in in the first place. So much for "in Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew or Greek, . . ."

Bob

Paul didn't say anything about no Italian or Irish, Germans or Poles. So some people must read him in a very literal way.

I have lived and breathed a good deal of my adult life in both Traditions, and find that there is little substance to this "fact". While the Latin west may have sinned greatly, her fruits are considerable. I have witnessed remarkable examples of "living the Faith" wherever I've been.

I'm not referring to "sinning"--thereis plenty of that to go around. I'm referring to things like an icon corner where family devotions take place. Or even the concept of family devotions. In my professional life, I've been in literally hundreds of Catholic homes and have been hard pressed to find a single religious item--cross, crucifix, rosary, Bible. The bulk of the Catholic people I have lived with live little differently than the unchurched people in the same neighborhoods. It's the idea that practicing the Faith is more than an hour trip to a church on Sunday morning.

Bob

While outward displays of religiosity can be edifying, I guess I just do not equate this with "living the Faith". To a large extent these displays reflect a cultural mold that I honor and respect. The emphasis of my comment was not on "sins", but on "fruits" and it is by these that you shall know them. I do not embrace the tenets of the Anabaptists, but I will tell you I have been among few people who live their faith more authentically than the Bruderhof; they without any outward display of religiosity. I'm sorry if I've taken the thread in another direction, but this is an important issue for me.