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Stuart,

I have heard many times the statement that all the music in the green Divine Liturgies book is taken note-for-note from Bokshai, and virtually every one of those statements has come from you, from John Vernoski, or from your auditors. I would hope that you, as a historian, would rely on better evidence than that.

And as a matter of fact, the statement is simply not true. Those musical settings come from Bokshai and the collections based on that work, but also from the oral traditions of the Pittsburgh and Johnstown diocese; the 1970 Irmologion of Father Stephan Papp (Presov), music from the seminary in Uzhorod; and other printed collections from Europe. The music from Jerry Jumba's Advanced Cantor School also provided significant influences, as did the singing of Bishops Andrew Pataki and Nicholas Smisko.

Our seminary recently completed an eight-week course on the history of our plainchant, with three weeks just on its evolution from 1820 to the present. Until you become more familiar with that history and the issues involved, I would suggest that you refrain from making statements like the one quoted above.

Please note: I am NOT asking you never to raise the issue. I am asking you to put the time into learning what music is and isn't from Bokshai, and what the other sources contained, before you simply claim that "they took everything note for note from Bokshai." The statement in the preface of the green book, explaining the musical sources, is literally true.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewksi

Please consider the following as being constructive observations from one who shares the Rusyn chant tradition with the BCC and who is looking in, from the 'outside' on your ongoing debates on the topic. Thanks!

One has to keep in mind that Boksaj represented just one thread of our venerable chant tradition - the divide between the Presov school and that of Muchachevo/Uzhorod is subtle - but noticeable - and to our 'old timers' it was often the cause of unending 'battles royale' among many would be 'men of the books' as they would be called 'ponasemu.' To many Boksaj became a 'bible', to others it was always a source of controversy.

I remember when Fr. Stephan Papp's recordings first made their way to the West after the Prague Spring in the late 1960's. To my ear, they sounded familiar - yet odd. My dad, who like Joe and others here, was trained as a cantor by an educated Professor and priest(from Presov) explained to me that the best cantors led - not by force - but by 'spirit' or 'duch' -and allowed the congregation (and the priest who often chimed in loudly!!!) to 'drive' the singing.

Never the less, the recordings (and Boksaj) were a good learning tool in the absense of trained cantors on the parish level. It is hard to explain this concept but those of you who have the experience, you know what I am trying to express.

Ultimately the problem with an oral chant tradition is the very 'oral' nature it possesses. Legitimate variances from parish to parish, county to county, state to state developed over time both in Europe and in the Americas.

When there was a Diocesan celebration in our Church (and I am certain that in your BCC this was also the case) in order to avoid that problem from 'ruining' the responses, the Bishop would appoint one or two cantors, or often priests, to lead the congregational responses. Usually men whose egos would allow them to work with others were selected and the ones with large voices and egos (and we all know that there were, and are, plenty of cantorial 'prima donnas') would be relegated to the side of the 'kliros' or cantor stand if in the balcony. )

Taking the language issues aside, I don't have a 'horse in that race', but the problems of singing chant from a book are nothing new and not unique to our particular tradition. With a little bit of ego suppression and pastoral wisdom on the local level, these problems ought to disappear in time.

Finally, I would note that the late Metropolitan Nicholas had no issues with sending persons, including his seminarians, to your Cantor's Institute for advanced training so that our shared patrimony could be preserved. Had I lived closer to western PA, I would have enjoyed the opportunity as well.

Thank you for allowing an outsider to weigh in on this!

Lower fertility rates are not limited, as I said, to white, native-born Americans, whose fertility rate, as compared to that of Europeans (both Western and Eastern), Japanese, Chinese and Iranians is pretty robust.

As I said, as countries industrialize, their total fertility rate decreases--true across geography, race, and religion. Mexico is rapidly industrializing, and as a result, its fertility rate is also dropping. At present, among immigrants from Mexico, the differential is between where Mexico is now, and where native-born America is now. In a decade or so, there will be no differential: the TFR in Mexico will be about the same as the TFR in the United States, in which case we will notice no difference in the number of babies being born to Mexicans as opposed to Anglos.

Deacon Paul,

Thank you for the kind words but we really left shortly after the RDL went into effect. We return each year for some of the Holy Week services since they still use the old books (which are free from the bishops' personal secular liberal politics).

Laypeople don't have any say in the Byzantine Catholic Church. There is nothing we can do to "work within the Church".

When he was installed as the new metropolitan, Archbishop Skurla talked about some long awaited secretly planned plan to bring new people in to the Church. no one believes him. Notice that he didn't mention anything about restoring the liturgy so that people like my family could return.

Go ask the archbishop if those who want the whole liturgy and the old music we memorized from childhood if we can have it. He's not going to say yes.

After Good Friday Vespers one of the men joked: "There are still people coming to church. We must have more revisions. We must keep revising the liturgy until there are no more people left." Everyone laughed but it is really sad.

Lisa

Lisa is on to something. Eventually the hierarchs will have to remember that we aren't in the hollows of the Carpathians, and that the laity are not illiterate peasants, but in many cases possess precisely the kind of knowledge, talents and skills that are needed to restore and revitalize the Church. Clericalism, however, is rampant, and the general attitude seems to be "if it didn't originate with the clergy, it isn't worthy of consideration".

That attitude can best be summed up in the response someone got from a Chancery drone: "The bishop doesn't talk to ordinary people".

Christ is Risen!


Again slandering the Bishops. I have never seen a credible source that quotes the Bishops saying the laity are "illiterate peasants." So please provide your source or stop slandering.

In fact the Bishops, through our Seminary, have started an online learning program for laity to learn more about their faith. If we were "illiterate peasants" why would such a program be offered through a graduate level Seminary?


Once again more claims with no evidence or sources.


And why should anyone believe that this was said? What is your source? I have spoken to my bishop before and I am an ordinary layman and got treated nothing like what you claim.

Let's get back to working on the salvation of our souls and stop the slandering and gripping about one particular Church.

We all get it, the RDL is not popular with some, but instead of trying to work within the church (as many in the Roman church did over their changes after VII) people left and now complain or Pontificate (if only they would have listened to me!) about it online.

Tell me how complaining against Bishops and liturgical translations help save anyone's soul? Seems to me the only thing it does is lead us all into Spiritual Pride.

Nelson,

How many times have you met our bishops not to know who they are?

The late Bishop Pataki was the one who won't talk with ordinary people. You could ask him for direction but you could never ask him to explain the reasoning that went into his decisions.

Bishop Skurla is nice enough. He is never rude. But neither will he actually answer a question. He admitted to lots of people that the RDL isn't very good. But in the same breath he also said that now that it is promulgated nothing can be done about it.

Archbishop Basil was nice, but at the Uniontown Pilgrimage he always deferred questions on liturgy to Bishop Pataki.

Bishop Dino is nice. I don't think he likes the RDL. He was never a real supporter of it when he was a priest in Passaic.

Bishop Kudrick is really guarded in what he will say.

The bishops do treat us laity as if we are stupid. Ask any of them to explain why the RDL was necessary and you get nothing but cold stares. Been there. Done that.

Now that I think about it, as Metropolitan, Archbishop Skurla could grant blanket permission for parishes to go back to the old translation and music. I know he's been asked. But no one is holding their breath. Pray, pay and obey.

Jason

Not slandering, Nelson, simply relating my own personal experiences with Their Graces--and not merely the late Emeritus of Passaic, either.

Jason has the right of it. Most of our bishops and almost all of our priests are "tames", a term coined by Father Paul Mankowski for a certain type of personality that gets attracted to the Catholic priesthood:


In another essay, What Went Wrong?, about the clerical abuse scandal, Mankowski spoke of how people who complained were made to feel by the hierarchs to whom they brought them:


Does this sound at all familiar to anyone with regard to the RDL--or for that matter, to complaints about clerical sexual abuse, parish closings, financial malfeasance, etc., etc. ad nauseum?

Stuart,

With regard to the first quote you posted, this description fits the MO of business leaders and managers.

The second description fits the military.

Paul,

The second only applies to the military at ranks above O-6. The former only applies to businesses either out of business or going out of business. Both apply to civil service positions at the Federal, State and Local levels, which means we might as well pick our bishops from among the qualified employees of the Department of Motor Vehicles.

Oh, and periodically the military has to fight a war, and that tends to clear out the "tames" for a generation or so (war is pitiless to tames). The only equivalent thing for the Church is a good persecution (which also grinds up tames like so much grist between the millstones), but who wants that?

I just read "What Went Wrong?".

Wow........ I think this is spot on.

E-5's and acting E-5's display this a lot in basic training.

You may be right about businesses; unfortunately it applies to almost all the upper management and boards of directors of the mega-corporations. It must be some requirement at the universities that "educate" them.

It's called "management theory", and those who believe its talismanic powers usually wind up managing companies in Chapter 7. As for E-5s in basic, remember the whole purpose of basic is to obliterate the individual and rebuild him into a soldier. On the other hand, good trainers often make lousy combat leaders.

If anyone has back issues of The Latin Mass, I am looking for this article:

“‘Tames’ in Clerical Life,” The Latin Mass, Vol. 5, No. 3, Summer 1996.

Latin Mass' digital archives do not go back that far. If you have a copy, and can scan it, I would greatly appreciate a copy.

Stuart