www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Blunt Question about Mary and EC Churches

All the more reason for those of us who know the real (broader) meaning of the words to use them correctly. In that way we shall inform the ignorant and enlighten them not only to the true meaning of the words concerned, but also of the faith conveyed by those words. It is better to do that than to simply embrace a Protestant usage.

P.S. - I was a Protestant for over twenty years, and so I have no interest in going back to that way of thinking and behaving.

Any reasonably well educated person should be able to grasp the explanation. Any reasonably well educated person would already be familiar with the usage, though it may seem archaic. Protestants call their entire "worship space" the sanctuary. Should we start to adopt their usage (or avoid ours)so as not to cause confusion? I think that if you are dealing with an intelligent person of good will, it is an excellent opportunity to broaden his or her understanding of our faith.

These answers seem to me to be more about Protestantism than anything else.

That is a keen observation. I posted in this thread precisely because many of the responses betray a Protestant view of prayer and worship. Thank you again for your insightful comment.

Likewise, you bring up great points. Just trying to keep the core issue up front for those genuinely looking for clarity.

A Catholic once said to me that Mary is content to be in the background, and always puts her Son forward. She clearly wants to bring us to her Son, not to herself. And that is what she will do for those you are worried about who pray "to" her instead of making the distinction and saying "through" her; she will hold them up before her Son. (And those who carefully make such distinctions as well.)

I do think, however, that you should think about some of the ways that the Theotokos is unique. Think of her title, Theotokos, birth-giver of God. She was the way Jesus Christ was brought to the world, and not just incidentally so. God chose her in particular for this role and prepared her for it. Her perfect submission to the will of God was necessary for Christ to come to us. Since the events of salvation history are not just single events in the past, but are always alive and present, that she, both in her will and in her body was the way Christ was brought to the world, also tells us something about how the economy of grace works now; she brings Christ to us. Prayers to her are always prayers for the mercies of her Son. You could also look at her position at the foot of the cross; she will bring our prayers with her to the foot of the cross.

Mary is the second Eve, just as Jesus is the new Adam. As Eve's disobedience led Adam to disobedience, Mary's obedience provided the way for Christ's obedience to his Father in dying on the cross. Mary is the one who was predicted who crushed the head of the serpent. She is the Arc of the New Covenant. She is "our tainted nature's solitary boast"(sorry, very Roman of me, this is Gerard Manley Hopkins I believe), the first fruits of redemption. She is the Woman crowned with stars in Revelations.

I think it is reductive to say that we pray to Mary just as we pray to our fellow Christians and the other Saints. She has a place above the other saints, and the veneration we offer to her is a step above what we offer the other saints. (St. Thomas called it hyperdulia.)

Well now that I have been so Roman, let me cite some things said about her in the East.

"The limitations of nature are overcome in you, O pure Virgin, for birthgiving remains virginal, and death is the prelude to life: a virgin after childbearing and alive after death. You ever save your inheritance, O Theotokos."

"The grave and death did not detain the Theotokos. She intercedes without rest and is our unfailing hope of protection, for He who dwelt in the womb of the Ever Virgin, transferred to life the Mother of Life. " [ remember that Eve was 'the mother of all living' Here Mary is the Mother of Life.]

Let no uninitiated hand touch the living Arc of God, but let faithful lips singing without ceasing the words of the angel to the Theotokos, cry aloud in great joy: Rejoice, of full of grace, the Lord is with you.

And if you have attended Divine Liturgy at all, you must have sung,"It is truly proper to glorify you, O Theotokos, the ever blessed immaculate and the mother of our God, More honorable than the cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim, who a virgin gave birth to God the Word, you truly the Theotokos, we magnify. "

or
In you, O woman full of grace, all creation rejoices, the angels in their ranks and the human race. Sanctified Temple and Rational Paradise, Boast of Virgins, from whom our God took flesh and became a child, while remaining God from before all time. He made your womb a throne, setting it a apart, a room more spacious than the heavens. In you, O woman full of grace, all creation rejoices.

So you see that in the east we also say to Mary not just pray for us, but "save us." I think the language might be more comfortable than you find in the Hispanic devotions, but I think we put the Theotokos in as high a place as they do. (unless you find someone who actually calls her God as someone here said they did. I never have.)

However, returning to what I said at first, other than participating in the Liturgy, you can do as you like with respect to private prayer, in either East or West. Mary won't be offended; all she wants is to bring you to her Son. I do think that before fleeing, you might want to learn all the scriptural roots of devotion to the Theotokos. Scott Hahn wrote a book about this, the name of which I unfortunately forget. The one I read when I was struggling with it was Louis Boyer's "Seat of Wisdom."

Susan Peterson

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