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#379841 05/10/12 11:24 PM
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http://weeklypress.com/from-catholic-to-orthodox-p3095-1.htm

From Catholic To Orthodox
In the Orthodox cathedral of Helsinki- Finland. Laying the groundwork with a monk.
Weekly Press
• Wed, May 09, 2012

By Thom Nickels
Special to the Weekly Press

The word ‘orthodoxy’ can conjure up foul associations. There’s Bertrand Russell’s famous quote, "Orthodoxy is the grave of intelligence," which covers any sort of rigid or right thinking at the expense of creative thought.

Orthodoxy (lower case) implies a strict adherence to tradition against which Modernism doesn’t stand a chance. In Judaism, Orthodoxy is seen as that religion’s supreme, most traditional expression, its un-reformed essence. In Christianity, Orthodoxy which has never had a Second Vatican Council or anything approaching a Novus Ordo - Divine Liturgy with lay ministers and Protestant-style hymns - is a window into the ancient Church. In fact, you could search the world for a modern young Orthodox priest with a guitar and a penchant for humming "On Eagles Wings," but chances are you wouldn’t find one. Priests like that never get a chance to bloom in Orthodoxy; or, if one was discovered in seminary, he’d be sent packing or be told to switch hit to the local Catholic Franciscans.

In the Orthodox Church there are no activist organizations of lay women clamoring to be priests (although Metropolitan Kallestos Ware admits that at some point in time the Church may have to consider the question). To date Orthodox women, however feminist their inclinations, haven’t splintered off and gotten themselves "ordained" by renegade bishops.

There are no Orthodox lay liturgists trying to reinvent or modernize the Divine Liturgy, either. In the eyes of the world, Orthodox Christianity has always been relegated to second tier status, taking a back seat to Catholicism’s power, even in this era of clergy sex abuse. As a box to be checked on applications and questionnaires, where religious affiliation means Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, or other , Orthodoxy barely exists at all.

My first glimpse of Orthodoxy was at the 1964-1965 New York Worlds Fair. I’d gone to the Fair with my family primarily to visit the Vatican Pavilion, a modernist white building that had a futuristic look and that effectively mirrored the reformatting of Catholicism taking place in Rome at the Second Vatican Council. Inside the Pavilion was Michelangelo’s treasure, The Pieta, a major Fair exhibit that attracted people of all faiths. Inside the Pavilion there was also the modernist Chapel of the Good Shepard with its minimalist altar table, glass stained windows but not much else.

The chapel’s over-wrought simplicity made an impression on me. Not only did this new Catholic structure have a decidedly Presbyterian style, all the signature Catholic elements were missing except a crucifix. The intent seemed to be the creation of an interdenominational chapel where everybody would be made to feel at home. This was a Catholic chapel that didn’t want to offend Protestants by looking "too Catholic."

At the time, I sensed that the chapel design hinted at coming changes in Catholic Church architecture.I was right. Most visitors, distracted by the media hoopla surrounding The Pieta (the Vatican Pavilion was the second most popular exhibit at the Fair, attracting some 27,020,857 guests) probably didn’t dwell on this fact that much. My sense is that many Catholics then excused minimalist, Protestant looking church interiors if there was enough stained glass to take the mind off what had been eliminated.

Not far from the Pavilion was a small log cabin church with a three-bar cross on top. I knew the cross to be Russian Orthodox. The chapel was a replica of the first Orthodox chapel in America built in the 1800s at Fort Hood, California. While the rustic exterior put one in mind of Lincoln Logs or Lewis and Clark expeditions, the interior - we had to peer through the windows because the chapel was locked - revealed something startling: a small chandelier illuminating a colorful iconostasis in the center of which were circles of electric candles and a replica of the framed (miraculous) icon of Our Lady of Kazan.

The beauty of that small log cabin church far surpassed anything in the great white Pavilion monolith with its cold and empty Chapel of the Good Shepard.

It was then that I asked myself: What is this thing called Orthodoxy? Growing up, I was taught by the nuns that only Catholics had the true sacrament, the actual Body and Blood of Christ or the Real Presence; Catholics were the only ones with saints, the Mass, priests, and churches that looked like real holy places.

Orthodoxy, I found, also had the Mass (the Divine Liturgy), canonized saints, monks, nuns, priests, vestments, miters—everything in fact that Catholicism had, even miracle stories, bleeding and myrrh streaming images, as well as visions of the Virgin Mary.

This was confusing stuff for a committed, 12-year old Catholic. If there is only one true Church, why would the Virgin Mary make alleged appearances over the dome of a Coptic Orthodox church in Zeitoun, Egypt in front of hundreds of thousands of people? These series of apparitions, lasting from 1968 to 1971, spontaneously healed many people who witnessed the lady in light move around the dome of the church. Why would the bodies of some Orthodox saints remain incorrupt in the same manner as Saint Catherine Laboure’s body in Paris? For every Catholic saint or miracle story there is an Orthodox counterpart.

Is the Orthodox Church the true "other" lung of the whole Church, and not the schismatic renegades they’re made out to be by some Catholic traditionalists? In the eyes of God, where the divide and conquer nature of human politics does not exist - to the chagrin of strict doctrinaire prelates, both East and West, steeped in charges of heresy or schism - are both Churches already really one and united "under the skin" despite the lack of an official agreement?

As the abbot of St. Tikhon’s monastery near Scranton told me last year: "It was the Western, or Catholic Church, that began changing everything." These changes not only included the Flioque clause in the Nicene Creed but the way Christians crossed themselves. The original method of crossing oneself was the Orthodox way, right to left, but Rome changed it from left to right in the 8th century.

A change like this seems a small thing but it can also be indicative of something deeper, like a tendency to re-invent and denude until centuries later you get something like the Second Vatican Council, where the changes were so drastic that if a Catholic from 1947 could come back he wouldn’t even recognize today’s Catholic Mass as being Catholic.

When former Byzantine Catholic Hieromonk and theologian Fr. Gabriel Bunge converted to the Orthodox Church, it generated a lot of press. (Conversions work both ways and can be a lot like musical chairs: In 2009, Orthodox theologian and writer John Mack converted to Eastern Catholicism although shortly after this he divorced his wife and left the priesthood).

On his conversion to Orthodoxy, Fr. Bunge said:

"…Many people thought that the two Churches were moving towards each other and would eventually meet at one point. But as I was growing older and learning some things deeper, I stopped believing in the possibility of the reconciliation of two Churches in terms of the divine services and institutional unity. What was I to do? I could only go on searching for this unity on my own, individually, restoring it in one separate soul, mine. I could not do more. I just followed my conscience, and came to Orthodoxy."

I see the wisdom in this statement, especially since my conversion to Orthodoxy on April 8th of this year. Prior to my first communion at an Orthodox parish in Northern Liberties, I had many conversations with members of the congregation in which more than several freely admitted that they often attend Catholic churches when they are away on vacation and when they cannot find an Orthodox church.

Not only do they attend Catholic churches but they receive communion in these churches, a fact which may be frowned upon by their pastor or bishop but a fact nevertheless. The Orthodox people I spoke with felt they could relate to Catholics because Catholics believe in the Real Presence. "It’s all about the Eucharist," as one Orthodox lady told me. "This is why I come to church, to receive the Eucharist. The Eucharist is not a symbol or a memorial, it is real."

Comments like these bypass the usual East-West schism rhetoric having to do with the Filioque, or questions related to the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. It’s not that many or most Orthodox don’t think that these questions are important; many do. But for the ordinary people in the pews, ie. people who are not theologians, priests or monks, it is the Eucharist that stands out as the centerpiece of spiritual life. So yes, a certain strange unity of the heart between the two churches has already taken place.

I came to Orthodoxy from Catholicism partially because of its unchanged liturgy; because the Orthodox Church, in its wisdom, never embarked on a path of liturgical self-destruction. It was not enough for me to attend the Traditional Catholic Latin Mass once a month when the bulk of the Catholic Church remains in the Novus Ordo camp. Even while attending the TLM at beautiful Saint Paul’s church in South Philadelphia, one could not escape the reality that this Mass was a minority Mass, primarily a footnote to the Novus Ordo.

It pained me to realize that the TLM was seen more as a specialized event and not part of the regular lists of masses in most Catholic churches.

In the Orthodox Church there is always the traditional liturgy; the rubrics never wax or wane depending on the latest liturgical fashion. There’s no need for committees to advertise or promote tradition.Tradition is already there, and it’s not going anywhere. It is, as they say, the Church.

Since becoming Orthodox, gone are the endless personal narratives that would run in my head whenever I’d attend either a TLM or the Novus Ordo. Those narratives concentrated on what had been lost or thrown away.

In the Orthodox Church, tradition is not shuffled in and shuffled out, like a road show trekking onto Buffalo.

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I personally see a well-done OF Mass as more similar to a DL than a EF Mass is to a DL. But then again it depends on what one appreciates...

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Originally Posted by Dave in McKinney
I personally see a well-done OF Mass as more similar to a DL than a EF Mass is to a DL. But then again it depends on what one appreciates...

I agree.

An OF Mass done the way Pope Benedict presumably would like it to be done can actually be quite splendid. I used to serve at EF Masses, and always thought that the required rubrical rigour completely stifled the true organic nature of the Liturgy.

Besides, the idea that the EF is ancient is a bit of a misnomer, seeing as it more accurately represents a post-Tridentine galvanisation than the late antique rite some imagine it to be.

Last edited by Slavophile; 05/12/12 11:08 AM.
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It would be interesting to see a OF mass done how VII meant it to be done.

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My experience at Holy Name, Manchester, was of precisely just such a Mass.

Theological differences between the Eastern tradition and Western aside, when priests actually do just say (sing) the black and do the red, especially if the stand ad orientem, the EF can actually feel almost Eastern.

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Nice...perhaps someday. I am still getting everything set up for an ordination in June in Gloucester.

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For clarification:

In my post immediately above Sbdn. John's, I meant that the OF can actually feel almost Eastern. And the clause just before should read '...especially if they stand ad orientem'

Sorry, but I blame it either on the post-Liturgy nap, or the post-nap beer.

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Lol. I get it now.

Still nice.

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I do not want to create bitter feeling or controversy. Are there many Orthodox "out there" who have converted from "Conservative" or "Traditionalist" Roman catholicism ? I would be very interested to hear their stories, what gave them the final push. I think there are many Traditionalists fed up with the bitter battles, endless arguments, different groups and just want to get away from it all, maybe "fed up" rather than being able to articulate it all theologically. I think there are those who are anxious about the do it yourself approach and huge variety of faiths and the expressions of it. OPUS DEI, which I think is a wonderful organisation claim they are at the centre of the Church, but anyone going to their centres and Oratories will see that to all practical purposes they are very much "to the Right" and since when did Roman catholicism have a spectrum ? aren't we all now inclusive like the Anglicans ?

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Edmundia,

There are indeed members here who have gone to Orthodoxy from the Latin Church. I can't speak, offhand, as to whether they've done so from a traditionalist or more 'centrist' (for lack of a better word) involvement. As well, you'll find Eastern Catholics who have done so.

You'll also find those who have come to Catholicism, Eastern or Latin, from Orthodoxy and still others who have come from other faiths to one of the Eastern Churches or to the Latin Church, as well as those who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox, but have an interest in and love for the East. We're a rather very diverse community with our commonality being that shared interest and love.

I'll leave the floor to those who can better address your questions from their own experience, but welcome to the forum.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Thanks so much for the kindly welcome and what a good and friendly spirit - free from bitterness - this forum has !

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"If there is only one true Church, why would the Virgin Mary make alleged appearances over the dome of a Coptic Orthodox church in Zeitoun, Egypt in front of hundreds of thousands of people?"

Umm...I'm no genius, but wouldn't that question remain upon his entrance into the Eastern Orthodox Church? The Coptic Orthodox Church is part of the Oriental Orthodox communion of Churches, who are in just as much communion with Eastern Orthodoxy as with Catholicism (read: officially none at all).

He seems somewhat like a Roman Catholic who has been disenchanted with the deformations in liturgy, theology, and religious life which have ravaged Roman Catholicism in the modern West.

But the Roman Church is slowly but surely returning to her roots; the impending reunion with the SSPX (or, some of it) would be evidence of that.

Alexis

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Please pray for that agreement - for which many of us hope - between the hierarchical church at the SSPX. I am sure that if it happens there will be many difficulties, but the whole church will benefit.

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Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
But the Roman Church is slowly but surely returning to her roots; the impending reunion with the SSPX (or, some of it) would be evidence of that.
Alexis,

Have you heard anything on this lately? The last I heard, they were shifting the discussions more to their non-liturgical areas of contention, such as ecumenism and religious liberty.

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Originally Posted by Edmundia
I do not want to create bitter feeling or controversy. Are there many Orthodox "out there" who have converted from "Conservative" or "Traditionalist" Roman catholicism ? I would be very interested to hear their stories, what gave them the final push. I think there are many Traditionalists fed up with the bitter battles, endless arguments, different groups and just want to get away from it all, maybe "fed up" rather than being able to articulate it all theologically. I think there are those who are anxious about the do it yourself approach and huge variety of faiths and the expressions of it. OPUS DEI, which I think is a wonderful organisation claim they are at the centre of the Church, but anyone going to their centres and Oratories will see that to all practical purposes they are very much "to the Right" and since when did Roman catholicism have a spectrum ? aren't we all now inclusive like the Anglicans ?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Edmundia,
This is my first post on this Forum, but I wanted to provide some thoughts (helpful I hope) regarding my conversion to The Orthodox Church. To provide some context, I converted to Roman Catholicism 25+ years ago. Prior to that I was s serious Protestant for 14 years. I have just entered the Catechumenate in the Greek Orthodox Church a few weeks ago after a few months of inquiry and visiting different parishes/jurisdictions.

I knew nothing of Vatican II (or Vat I) as I entered Catholicism. Over time I began to experience confusion, with so many people alluding to (what I saw as 'protestant' and even 'new age' tendencies) as the "Spirit of Vatican II". Then there was Assisi...a picture worth 1000 words. When I was properly fed up (after 10 years) of what I saw as just another protestant experience... I took my family and moved to another state to live with a large SSPX community. We lived there for almost 3 years but became concerned about what we saw and experienced as a "cult-like" mentality and judgemental attitudes and deep anger, etc. When I refer to "just another protestant experience" above I'm talking about the adversarial breakout groups "pledging allegiance" to Vat II, Sedevacantism, Traditionalism, Charismaticism, "reform of the reform", speculative intellectualism (read: whitewashing), SSPX, SSPV, Institute of Christ the King, Notre Dame/(McBrien-ism), "for all" (consecration of the wine) VERSUS "for many"... first one way of consecrating (with changed words)... now, of late, back to consecrating with "for many", World Youth Day with 'consecrated' hosts handed out indiscriminately, some dropped (I even read that some were stepped on by the teeming young crowds), those who hold to a truncated version of the post V II Church (all that's old is gone/irrelevant) versus the continuity folks (living tradition, development of doctrine, etc.)... and on & on. In a hierarchical Church, it is startling to see decade upon decade of ambiguity, confusion and instability. (" If the trumpet makes an uncertain sound,, who will prepare for battle?" 1 Cor: 14:8, and "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints" 1 Cor: 14:33). I've heard the clever (and not so clever) sophistries and apologetics from some whose very livelihood depends on said sophistries and apologia, so objectivity in those cases is spurious at best. Remember, I spent a quarter of a century in this Roman Catholic milieu, and I can assure you, not as a cultural adherent. All this said, I'm (obviously) very convinced that The Living God has condescended to my poor dilemma and opened this great door of grace to The Ancient Church through which I have entered, bowed down. I might be able to cite a litany of reasons (and probably not too well at this point)... but more importantly, are the other influencing/encouraging helps that continue to come through the intercession of The Mother of God and some Saints. These are meant to be experienced as "Come and See" (as in the Gospels) or "Taste and See" (from the Psalmist) 'reasons'. Though it certainly has its place, more often than not, I think, argumentation is just procrastination in disguise... waltzing around the mulberry bush in order to avoid doing something courageous or in faith, or both.

I love what was good, what I learned (the hard way) from my experience as an RC. I am not seeking here to proseletyze or lambast or start more "dialogue"... (will that word ever go away!) :>) Just an honest answer to your question, with trembling, because I know all too well that typed words (vs. spoken) tend to be lacking in nuance when presented among strangers on a forum, and can turn on you very quickly. At the end of the day, I'm upset with myself for caving in to denial and giving up the fight for the sake of 'comfort' or 'getting along' all those years. There clearly was another option... I simply thought there couldn't be because of the teachings, dogmas re: the Roman Bishop and his place in Christendom. That Roman Catholic teaching, in retrospect, is probably why I didn't land in Byzantine Catholicism as I sought refuge... but, on the contrary, went fully East.

Hope this helps, and I am grateful for this Forum and those dear Byzantine Catholic Christians who I am sure longed for (or will settle for nothing less than) purity and continuity in belief and worship.

Christos Anesti!

Ivanov

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