www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox?

Dear John & Constantine,
Glory be to Jesus Christ!

Constantine,
I am sorry to hear that your parish is so latinized and, thus, are HUNGRY for true eastern spirituality to nurish your soul. First, of course, we must practice in our own personal spiritual life what we need to feed our soul. So for you, doing pure eastern practices/prayers-which, I am sure you are already doing. Second, try to help reform your parish-hard, yes, but possible over time-are you ready to suffer with Christ? If, though, impossible, due to pastor, etc...find another parish. If that is not possible, then pray to the Theotokos to know what to do. She will guide you! But remember, the externals of worship are important, but they are NOT the most important thing. I'd take a latinized Eastern Catholic parish over an Orthodox parish with gorgeous services-but where the priest tells his faithful that they can practice contraception-ANYDAY!!!

John,
thank you for the article, the hierodeacon makes some good points. I also abandoned "papism" some time ago. This notion that the Pope of Rome is not just primate of the Universal Church with certain powers, but a sort of "tsar of all the Churches", an absolute monarch with all the patriarchs and bishops as nothing more than his "vassals" is total nonsense and has no backing in Apostolic Tradition, the Fathers, or in the first 1,000 years of the history of the Church! Every time the Pope of Rome did try to do something like being an absolute monarch in the 1st 1,000 years, he was resisted in the East,(even in the West) and it failed. It was only after the Gregorian Revolution after the first millennium that the Popes really began to develop further this false theory of monarchy, and try to force it on the East(and West)-and thus, schism-and the Eastern Churches were right to resist. Some Churches, like Kyiv or Antioch, never broke with Rome after Constantinople did, and just tried to "put up" with Rome's strange theory, which they did for some time. Later, sides became more clear & hardened and some eastern christians chose to stay in union with Rome as they had always done, and others separated. Thus, Eastern Catholic & Orthodox.

Now, we were born into this mess. Rome errored and divided the Church-it is very sad, but true. But, what can me and you really do about it? Pray, yes, pray and fast-this is the MOST important thing. But, how would me and you becoming Orthodox solve the problem of papalism? The Orthodox have their own form of papalism!-their own errors, just as unacceptable as papalism! Have you seen how Moscow-the third ROME-has been acting over the past years? It is POWERFUL and, WANTS MORE POWER! Look at the whole fight over Estonia(Moscow vs. Constantinople)-it is still a mess. Look at Ukraine. Look at the debates over a future pan-Orthodox council-Moscow wants to have the power to block any decision the council could make if it does not agree! Look into history at what Constantinople did to the other Eastern Orthodox patriarchates-sounds pretty "papal" to me!-they don't even have their own original liturgies anymore-it's all Byzantine!
If you joined an Orthodox jurisdiction and submitted to be rebaptized (as many have done) to flee papalism-how is that any different than papalism itself??? It is all the same false idea-WE make the faith! Where is the teaching of the Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of the Church that ALL heretics don't have any grace and need to be rebaptized? Why did the 1st Ecumenical Council say that Novations are only to be received by penance, but Paulianists must be rebaptized? Why not all, since according to Orthodoxy, all heretics have no valid sacraments. Trullo said that Nestorians and Monophysites are only to do penance to come back to the Church-no rebaptism, no chrismation, no revesting, nothing-just do some penance and come on in!
Now, this old monk I know told me that when he was with ROCOR, a Ukrainian Catholic joined, and THEY REBAPTIZED HIM! It was the exact same ritual that he was baptized with when he was one year old in the old country! My point: papalism, eastern style-WE MAKE THE FAITH!

The remedy? Remove all error from yourself! If all error is removed from yourself how can you not be pleasing to Christ-that's the point of being in his Church! The Pope holds errors? Guess what! All the Orthodox do too, including the Old Calendarists. You and me are never bound to hold any error; just the opposite. "Ecclesia semper reformata": in every age the Church is in need of reform. Wherever you have human beings, there will be error. This is the NORMAL state of things. Read Neuman's "Arians of the Fourth Century"!
ALL the hierarchs are in error in one form or another-and we are not bound by their ecclesiological errors! Jumping from one jurisdiction from another will not solve anything! We must stand and fight where we are! I agree, papal monarchy, etc... is bogus, but running from it into the arms of it's Orthodox counterpart won't help anything.
Obviously, orthodox Christians will, in times of rampant heresy and disorder, do all they can to avoid it, and join themselves to whatever part of the Church is healthy and retains integrity-but going to Orthodoxy is NO GUARANTEE WHATSOEVER of preservation from error!

Let's play the "Church-Shopping Game":
In order to discover the "True Church of Christ", do the following:
1. First: the Nestorians and Monophysites were excommunicated by Ecumenical Councils, scratch them off your list.
2. The Roman (& Eastern)Catholic Church has proclaimed Papal monarchy and infallibility-an obvious error-eliminate them.
3. The Russian Orthodox hierarchy was wholly subordinated to communist atheism-"antichrist"-and has never repudiated that position, scratch them off.
4. ALL the Eastern Patriarchs immediately recognized Metropolitan Sergius as legitimate head of the Russian Church and proclaimed communion with him; hence, all are "Sergianists", apostates-scratch them off.
5. The Greek Church is subordinated to a secular state government, has instituted the "New Calendar", and is openly modernist. Eliminate them.
6. The Old Calendarists are left.They all understand baptism by heretics to be invalid; hence, unless you were baptized by them, you may need rebaptism. However, since all the Patriarchates passed long periods in heresy without subsequent rebaptism or reordination of clergy, no one-if the Old Calendarist doctrine is correct-could possibly know whether any particular priest today IS a priest-or whether any Christian is a baptized Christian!
Therefore, there is no Church; so mabey, just turn on the tube and catch a game?

You see where such searching for the perfect Church can lead-as, their is no such thing as the perfect Church!
Orthodox AND Catholics make up the Church-we need to remove the error from ourselves and stand and fight for Christ's truth where we are.
The big fight today is against secularization, modernism, immorality-the Eastern Catholic Churches are still officially opposed to all forms of modern immorality, unlike many Orthodox jurisdictions today. So, I am going to stand with them, as, they are a part of the true Church and I was born into this Church. For those born Orthodox, they need to stay where they are and fight the error around them.

Forgive my going on and on-my point is you ARE in the Church-no move to "Orthodoxy" will fix anything! We need 'lots more prayer; less human activity & thinking-and please offer a bit up for this sinner. God bless you.

Alexis

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I thank God for the gift of my Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic faith and have no thoughts of betraying it. Neither do I have the desire to ask anyone of an Orthodox Church to betray his/her faith. But, as you asked for opinions, here is mine.

I say "betray" because within memory of some people still alive, we have experienced the heroic martyrdom of bishops, priests and laypeople who have sacrificed their lives, health, family or social status to remain faithful during the time of ruthless atheistic persecution. Their sacrifices and examples would be in vain if we were to abandon them.

Should anyone claim that our Church betrayed the Orthodox faith with the Uzhohrod or Brest agreements, the truth is that our Churches were nearly isolated from Constantinople at the time because of the Turkish conquest of Byzantium. According to written accounts, it seems the Patriarch was not opposed to the Unions because of the deteriorating situation. In fact, the unions PRESERVED Orthodoxy in Poland and Austria-Hungary, as there were pressures for the Church to become Calvinist or Latin. For the most part our Greek Catholic Church was the mother of the thriving various Orthodox Churches in Eastern and Central USA and the Orthodox Churches in America should be grateful.
It is indeed a scandal that the apostolic Churches of Christ are separated and cannot approve of a common Eucharist. The Body and Blood of Christ has been split and segregated. To me our communion with the Western Church is a sign that we recognize our common Roman brothers and they recognize us. Sure there are deficiencies, but, in my opinion, should pride keep us apart?

Rather than quibbling among ourselves, even the MP recognizes that we have a common threat in our society, that of materialism and periodic persecution which wants to erode and destroy our Faith. To me, the Roman Church has the resources and the will to combat this "wolf in sheep's clothing." The leadership through encyclicals and letters is commendable and necessary.

I find it troubling that some Orthodox bishops and Churches find our Mysteries to be "defective." Some find fault in the smallest change in the wording of the Profession of Faith, but fail to live up to the professed claim of "one Baptism." And how can the Gift of Chrismation be defective? Either one receives the Holy Spirit or he does not. That is, unless one believes that our priests are imposters and our ritual, which is the same as the Orthodox, is somehow not acted or spoken correctly.

The splintering of the Orthodox Churches is not as troubling, but can the East really justify the "autocephalus" Churches. With all the importance of Patriarchy that I read on this forum, how are they justified? Is the "Orthodox Church" patriarchal or not?

My brother, Constantine, let is live with brotherly love and try to understand each other; I take it that this is the reason for your post.

In my opinion we should respect each of the Apostolic Churches and try to work together. Let us be "God's hands" and docile to the Holy Spirit.

Your brother in Christ,
Fr Deacon Paul

For starters,I remain a member of the Catholic Communion of Churches for several reasons (these are not all but they're the salient ones):

- After giving it a lot of study, energy and attention I have concluded it's the most authentic form of Christianity available.

- I believe (albeit somewhat unenthusiastically) the Catholic Church's proposals about the role of the Bishop of Rome.

- I am convinced I am already orthodox. My well-meaning friends, members of the Orthodox Church, have kindly and lovingly shared with me, on more than one occasion, that that's an example of prelest on my part.

My rather troubled cousin, a Ukrainian Orthodox Church member in Saskatchewan, has shared with me her insight (!) that we Greek Catholics ain't nothin' more than "Orthodox-lite".

- Due to personal negative experiences with Catholic hierarchy members, I am suspicious to the point almost of hostility to authority-exercisers or "God-speakers" within the Catholic Communion of Churches. I do not for one instant think that their exercise of authority is necessarily a form of service. I do, however, opine it's often just one more expression of clericalistic abuse.

I'm working on moving beyond that but I ain't moved beyond it completely yet.

Consequently I have no desire whatsoever to transfer to yet another authority-loving Communion of Churches I perceive to be highly intrusive. I'd just as soon not go from the frying pan into the fire. I'll stay with the witch I know than swap for the devil I don't.

- Remaining within the Catholic Communion of Churches enables me to experience and lay claim to a variety of diverse liturgical/devotional expressions without transferring my allegiance to another Communion of Churches.

- It's a part of my ethnic religious heritage and I see no benefit whatsoever in relinquishing that.

As I have said before, I'm quite ambivalent about my Church membership and sometimes wonder if I'm stuck, like Br'er Rabbit on the tarbaby, on the Catholic Church.

Maybe these reasons are open to criticism but they're working for me and I'm persuaded God's OK with them, too.

I choose remaining an EC because jumping out from EC when she is in trouble will not solve the problem. If i run away from EC because there is problem, so there is no assurance that i will not do the same when the Orthodox Church faces problem.

Fr. Deacon James offers an excellent answer. My own wanderings have included the SSPX and six Orthodox jurisdictions in addition to coming very close to joining an Old Ritualist community and a brief stint in another Greek Catholic jurisdiction.

It is not polemics (I've heard lots of that over the years) but the "groanings of the spirit" that have led me and brought peace the last two-plus decades in the UGCC. Vladimir Soloviev, who I discovered much later in life, didn't so much convince me as place perspective on those "groanings".

When Patriarch +Sviatoslav came to Chicago last fall, I received his blessing and realized that we have been given one of the most dynamic leaders in Christendom. When I was present with my family for the enshrinement of the relics of Blessed Vasyl Velychkovsky in Winnipeg in 2002, it was even more vividly manifest as to what cost had been paid by our martyrs and confessors so that we might be able to worship in our parishes and homes, and remain faithful to the Union.

The grass is not greener, only the weeds are different.

I think this has been asked several times here, on OC.net and on CAF, and I've given this answer several times, but here we go:

1. I don't believe the Latin church is heretical and don't want to bring the schism into my family.

2. there's a lot more to the more difficult issues (e.g. role of the Pope) than is available on internet discussion boards.

3. the monk I met on Mt. Athos who I trust the most suggested, unsolicited, that I not convert, for reasons that remain personal. He knows Catholicism better than anyone outside of Catholic academia.

Shlomo Aho (Brother) Constantine,

You stated:
You are correct to the above, but many members of the board are not as educated as you and I on the differences within Catholicism or Orthodoxy. That is the main focus of my point.


To give you a very short answer, I feel that the Church is at its absolute Truth when we are in Communion with the Pope.


I feel that if one feel that then they should talk with their pastor and other members of their parish to get a more authentic Liturgy. As Frederick Douglass stated: "Power concedes nothing without a demand." If we want an authentic Liturgy then we need to demand it. This is one of the reasons that I am in trouble here in Las Vegas because I do demand that Our Eastern Catholic Churches get off their behinds and become "True" Churches in every since of the word.


Believe me when I say that your presence does help to change things. Before I got sick and became homeless, I was very involved in politics. I can tell you that being one person, you can change the system. I was the one that got late night liquor service in Minneapolis. Because of my work, the Republican Convention took place there. It would not have if they did not have late night liquor service. I also helped to get the bottle deposit law changed in Michigan and a number of other environmental laws passed.

With the wonderful work that Anthony Dragani did on evangelization I was able to build from his work and use it to be one of the first Eastern Catholics to do a presentation at World Youth Day, as well as have said work now be the offical guide for evangelization in my Eparchy and having the Melkite Eparchy have my paper listed on their website.

Until my teens I did not even know that I was a Maronite. I came to the faith because I did research, and even with all of its faults I feel that being a member of the Catholic Church is the best thing for me.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

When he left Orthodoxy, wasn't that "jumping ship" too?

Hi John. For me, personally, it isn't about advantages. I was born into the Roman Communion, and I don't know any reason strong enough to get me to leave it. (That's not to say that I would leave Orthodoxy, if I had been born into it.)

This is a very difficult question to answer. I could see a day when it maybe be necessary to become Orthodox. I see little in the later papal claims that make me think that communion with Rome is essential.
There are, however, family issues to consider -- breaking communion with the RC means breaking communion with most of the extended family.

I am Roman Catholic, but my heart is open to our Brothers and Sisters of the East. It has been in the last few monthes that I have been interested in learning more about the Eastern Churches and the Orthodoc Church.

I remain a Roman Catholic, because I feel this is where God wishes me to be at this time, however, I feel He wishes me to learn more about the Eastern Catholic Churches, I hope I got the right terminology, and the Orthodox Church.

God Bless,
AS

Very nice points everyone. I guess it all boils down to two major things, what do you believe in those things that Catholics and Orthodox do not agree on (like the Papacy), and I guess where your spirituality will grow more.

Personally, I don't see it that way. BTW, good to see you again, I've missed conversing with you on the other forum.




- Peter Jericho

"Neither Moscow nor Rome will give us unity."
+Lubomyr

I like to think ECs who voluntarily leave an EC and become Orthodox are merely changing ships, not "jumping ship". I believe one time (Canadian PM) MacKenzie King told President Roosevelt that Canada and the US were not in the same boat but were in the same waters.

But me, I can't see what good switching to the Orthodox Church would do me. And I can't see what good I'd do the Orthodox Church, either.

I don't Want to derail the OP's original thought but I would like to expand on it with a few questions, that I would like to hear responses from practicing Byzantine Catholics.

It seems in reading through many of the posts in this thread it appears that many Byzantine Catholics have contemplated becoming Orthodox. This is apparently for various reasons such as they are dissatisfied with what they feel are continued Latinizations from the Roman Church, or they feel want to go fully Orthodox or as one person phrased it that some may view themselves as being "Orthodox-lite" as a Byzantine Catholic. Others seem to imply mayb feel they are being treated as a"red-headed step- child of Rome as opposed to being given the respect and autonomy they deserve.

The times I have been to a Byzantine Catholic Church I have always been treated respectfully, folks have always been kind, helpful, encouraging and did their best to make me feel comfortable. The Divine Liturgy was always beautiful, spiritual and respectful. I got the feeling it was a wonderful place to be. It always gives me a deeper appreciation of the Chrisitan East. I have always had the impression the people there were happy and content with their church.

However, reading the forum including this thread I get the feeling there is actually a lot of dissatisfaction with the Byzantine Catholic Church and its position within the Universal church.

With that being said, where do you see the position of the Byzantine Catholic churches within this Universal Church. Is it a happy medium between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox? Does the Eastern Catholic Churches satisfactorily stand alone? What would you like to see changed in the Eastern Catholic Churches. Most importantly, are you truly happy being an Eastern Catholic?