www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Rites of the Latin Church

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

I have a question for the Roman Catholics here on the board. How many of you have thought of having some of the other rites of your Church introduced here in the United States. Especially the Mozarabic Rite since that is the Rite out of Spain and would be a beautiful addition to our Church experience.

I would hope to see all of your rites to be fully practiced. Not only that but I think it would be a great draw for people to be able to see the richness and fulness of the Church.

For those in the Latin Church some of the other Rites of your Church are the Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Lyonnais (or Gaulican), and the Bragan (the Portugese version of the Mozarabic Rite).

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shawn,

As memory serves, those Rites can only be celebrated outside of their historic locales by indult. The Bragan and Mozarabic are very, very restricted georgaphically, even in their lands of origin - I'm unsure about the Lyonnaise.

Many years,

Neil

Slava Isusu Khrestu !
If my memory is correct and often it is not, one of the most recent Popes ( Paul VI ) maybe was an Ambrosian Catholic? Probably I am wrong but definitely one was not Latin Rite.

Unworthy
Kolya

Garajotsi:

There aren't really "Ambrosian Catholics"; Catholics who assist at Mass in the Ambrosian Rite are Roman Catholics who live in or near Milan, Itlay, where the rite of St. Ambrose (not vastly different from the Roman Rite) dominates. Pope Paul VI, before becoming pope, was Archbishop of Milan, and thus would have, during his time there, celebrated Mass according to the Ambrosian Rite.

As far as other rites, Catholic priests can't just sort of celebrate in any Western rite their little hearts desire just because. Some rites or forms of the Latin Rite are extinct and cannot be celebrated. Others, like the Anglican Use Liturgy, have their celebration limited to the communities for which they have been devised.

Other "rites" such as the "Tridentine Rite" or the "Dominican Rite" or the "Franciscan Rite" or the "Carmelite Rite" are, really, just variations of or "forms" of the Roman Rite. Today, in fact, the pre-Conciliar "Tridentine" Mass has been described as the "Extraordinary Form" of the Roman Rite (with the Conciliar form known as the "Ordinary From"). The "Tridentine" form has now been liberated, so to speak, so that any Latin Church priest may celebrate it any time he likes, anywhere he wishes. One could not, on the other hand, just up and use, say, the Sarum Rite if he wanted to.

That having been said, I really wish all the various known and historical and local forms of the Latin Rite of the eucharistic liturgy were up for grabs and could be celebrated freely. There exists in both the East and the West such a wealth of legitimate liturgical diversity that it seems a shame to keep so much of it locked away in books, in the imagination, or in small, specified locales or ethnic enclaves. I'd even love to see the Eucharist celebrated as Christ, Himself, with the apostles first celebrated it one day.

Both Pius XI and Paul VI were archbishops of Milan (where the Ambrosian rite was celebrated) later elevated to the papacy.

That of Lyon is long extinct. Likewise the Sarum use, although the situation with the Anglicans presents the interesting possibility for its resurrection.

There have been some few recent masses in the United States according to the Mozarabic and Ambrosian books, but you must understand the difficulty the Latin faithful face merely in securing regular and accessible celebration of the traditional form of the Latin mass (called alternately tridentine, extraordinary, etc). There isn't a lot of liturgical energy left.

The Dominican rite is celebrated regularly in the United States.

A liturgical practice, apparently unique to the Ambrosian rite:
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/02/lighting-of-faro-in-ambrosian-rite.html

When I was a child I'd have gotten a kick outta this. Come to think of it, I'd get quite a bit of mileage out of it TODAY.

I bet this practice considerably predates Jerry Lee Lewis' "Goodness, Gracious: Great Balls of Fire".

That would certainly be appropriate on Pentecost as the lesson from Acts 2:1-14 is read.

But I doubt that anyone would pay much attention to the Scripture after the words "divided tongues as of fire" were proclaimed verbally and visually.

A full treatment of the various Latin rites is found here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/MASS.TXT

As for the Ambrosian rite, although a copy of it can be found online, and there is a forum dedicated to it (in Italian of course), when I went to the Milan Cathedral bookshop, not only do they not have printed copies available, but they looked at me as if I were daft for even asking about it. All the liturgical books on sale at Milan Cathedral were Roman rite!

Shlomo JDC,


The Lyonnais Rite is still in use. The Archbishop of Lyon celebrates in that rite for certain holidays to this day in France.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Seriously, Would any average lay person, and I mean average, be able to tell the difference between any of these Roman "rites"?

They would notice that something is different.
Plus, these rites (Mozarabic, Ambrosian, etc)are pretty different than your local OF Roman Mass, like matters of chanting among other differences.

The difference would be at least noticeable to many Catholic worshippers, yes. If by "average" lay person you mean a completely secularized person who goes to church for weddings and funerals, then no. But then, such a person wouldn't necessarily be sensible of much of a difference between the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and a Baptist Gospel Hour. For such people, "church is church".

But do these various rites all seem like variations on the same rite? Yes. And really, they are.

Most Orthodox lay persons really do not know the difference between the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom and St Basil, they may say one is longer than the other but not why. People just do not pay that much attention to these things unless they are converts. Try asking!