www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Observing an Orthodox Liturgy

On June 9, I plan to attend a Hierarchical Divine Liturgy (we Roman Catholics would say "Pontifical High Mass")at a local Russian Orthodox Church. The bishop in New York to whom this parish is subject will be visiting, according to the church's website. Having never experienced an Eastern liturgy celebrated by a bishop, I can't resist the opportunity.

Because I will be a visitor who is not of the Orthodox faith, I would respectfully sit in the back and merely observe, but I wonder if anyone would care to offer any advice with respect to the best way to respectfully observe without actively participating.

What would the Orthodox expect of a Roman Catholic visitor? And does anyone know what the Catholic Church expects of Catholics who observe Orthodox worship? I'm unclear on what we are or are not to do, to be honest. Would it, for example, cross a line to greet the bishop with a reverential kiss of the hand were I to meet him? Would that even be expected by an Orthodox bishop?

Any helpful feedback would be appreciated.

Have fun finding a place to "sit". Orthodox--particularly Russian Orthodox--stand through the liturgy, and most churches have no pews; many have only enough chairs to accommodate the elderly and infirm. Wear comfortable shoes.

By all means, try to stand somewhere close to the front, otherwise you probably won't see much at all. When you enter the church, you will likely find icons on stands in the narthex. Venerate these by bowing to them and making the sign of the cross (don't worry much about being "backwards"). Bow and cross twice, kiss the icon, then bow and cross a third time. Upon entering the nave, bow towards the altar and cross yourself again.

During a hierarchical Divine Liturgy, the bishop remains in the nave, usually standing on a small box covered by an eagle rug. As the Liturgy begins, he will be vested by his deacons and subdeacons. Do not be surprised if people come up to him for blessings during the liturgy itself. Having been vested, he will either remain standing, or will be given a chair in which to sit during the Great Litany and the Antiphons. At the Little Entrance, the concelebrating priests, together with the deacons and acolytes, will process from the sanctuary to the bishop. The bishop will bless the Gospel book, and then will process with the priests and deacons into the sanctuary.

At various points, the bishop will emerge from the sanctuary to bless the people, usually while holding double (Dikeria) and triple (Trikeria) candlesticks. When he does so, one should bow slightly and make the sign of the cross. The deacons, the priests, and/or the bishop will incense the church and the congregation at various times. When the censer (Kadilo) is waved in your direction, simply bow, and do not cross yourself.

The collection plate is generally passed after the homily, which normally comes after the Gospel reading, but in some parishes is delivered at the end of the Liturgy; in that case, the plate is passed during the Litany of Supplication. There may be more than one collection.

Do not, of course, present yourself for communion. Don't worry--you probably won't be alone. After the dismissal, the bishop and presbyters are likely to distribute Antidoron (blessed bread). Make a cup of your hands with the right hand palm up over the left hand. The bread will be placed in your hand. You bow and kiss the back of the priest's hand. If the bishop offers you his hand cross, kiss it and the back of his hand. To ask the bishop (or the priest) for a blessing, make the same cup with your hand, approach him, bow your head, and say, "Master, bless". The will make the sign of the cross with his hand upon yours; you kiss the back of his hand.

That's about all you need to know, except that, by your standards, the service will be very long.

StuartK:

Wow. That all sounds so amazing; I'm really intrigued now after reading your fascinating description. A small box covered by an Eagle rug? This is going to be quite something; I can't wait to experience it.

I know that this particular church does, in fact, have pews, but at your duly heeded caution I will anticipate alot of standing, nevertheless.

I had not planned to approach for Holy Communion, of course, but I'm glad to know it's okay to approach the bishop for a blessing. I would like to offer my respect; it would seem only courteous. In the RC Church one (traditionally) genuflects on one knee to kiss a bishop's ring. Does one genuflect to kiss an Orthodox bishop's hand or should one remain standing?

Should I expect that business attire or a jacket and tie would be expected for such an occasion, regardless of the temperature? In the RC church, we can pretty much get away with wearing anything these days (unfortunately). I'm going to go out on a limb and imagine that the Orthodox are more strict in that regard.

One does not genuflect but simply touches the ground with you right hand while saying "Bless Vladika" while placing your right hand in your left palms up. The Bishop will bless you and place his right hand in your hand and then you simply kiss the top of his hand.

A very good explanation is given on the St. Elias website (UGCC): http://www.saintelias.com/ca/etiquette/greetings.php
"Greeting a priest or bishop" is near the bottom.

Thank you, all, for the pointers.

Before the 10:00am liturgy, there is, according to the schedule, what I assume must be one the offices at 9:30. The website simply says "9:30: Hours"

For the liturgy itself, my understanding is that the bishop would wear his miter and his vestments. What about for the "hours" though? Would he wear the...forgive me...the other costume, the familiar outfit that includes the hat with the black veil attached to it (pardon my ignorance of the correct terminology)? I am hoping to see all the Orthodox "eye candy".

Finally, is photography considered acceptable during worship services in the Orthodox Church, or no?

Here is some help on vestments:

http://orthovestments.com/

http://www.istok.net/russian-style-priest-vestments/

http://aggreen.net/vestment/liturgical_colors.html


No, photos are normally forbidden. Non-flash is sometimes acceptable if you ask but in no matter should the taking of photos be a distraction. If you are a journalist or have a reason for photos then contact the parish priest in advance and ask permission.

When the bishop visits our parish, he enters the nave of the church sometime during Orthros (yes, it is the liturgy of the hours) wearing only his cassock. The Reader (cantor) immediately stops the proceedings and everyone sings "Ton Despotin [en.wikipedia.org]." Then orthros picks up where it left off, while the bishop is vested by the priests and deacons of the parish.

The bishop never vests himself during one of these pastoral visits: The ritual for vesting him is part of the parish's acceptance and acknowledgement of him as their Shepherd. I remember hearing in one of my courses about a particular bishop who was not beloved of the people and who had angered the clergy. He entered the church and waited to be vested. And waited. And waited. He gave up waiting and left the church. I don't remember who (or when) it was, or what happened next, but that part certainly made an impression on me!

Also, aside from photography being generally frowned upon during liturgy -- although proud mothers have been known to photograph their sons the first time they are serving as acolytes -- the camera will get between you and the liturgy. Your concern to "capture the moment" will interfere with your ability to experience the moment.

Go. Experience. Be blessed!

I look forward to it, and I'll refrain from photography. I misspoke concerning the date, however; the liturgy is on the 10th, this coming Sunday, not the 9th. In the Orthodox Church, is this any special Sunday or is it simply a Sunday after Pentecost or what?

"The Reader (cantor) immediately stops the proceedings and everyone sings 'Ton Despotin.'"

Perhaps very roughly equivalent to "Ecce Sacerdos Magnus" in the Latin Church, traditionally (which means almost never anymore) sung as a salute to the bishop upon entering the church.

I do have a question: when Eastern bishops bless with the lit candles...surely that must get wax all over the floor/carpeting. Is this simply not considered an issue? As a sacristan, it gives me chills every time I see a video of an Eastern bishop doing that.

This Sunday should be All Saints' Day.

LOL, as regards way - in my Latin youth, delegated to regularly assist Sister Magdalen, the sacristan, I learned the use of a hot iron on a brown (kraft paper) bag as the best way to remove wax from carpeting. From floors, a putty knife. I can tell you that both still work well, if needed.

Many years,

Neil

StuartK wrote, "At various points, the bishop will emerge from the sanctuary to bless the people, usually while holding double (Dikeria) and triple (Trikeria) candlesticks. When he does so, one should bow slightly and make the sign of the cross."

I thought you never crossed yourself when receiving a blessing, since they are making the sign of the cross over you.

Evidently not. The congregation simply bowed each time the bishop turned around or emerged from the sanctuary to bless the people.

So, anyhow, I'm just back from my first Orthodox hierarchical Divine Liturgy and I am so glad I decided to go. I don't think I've ever seen anything so magnificent, liturgically speaking, in all my life. The music, the vestments, the ceremonial...just breathtaking. I have seen pontifical ceremonies in the Tridentine rite that were quite impressive, but this trumped even those, I think. It had something of an other-worldy quality about it that just sent one's spirit soaring. I couldn't have been more impressed.

On advice, I did not bring any electronic recording devices with me. Many worshippers, however, and even the pastor of the church, were taking pictures and videos left and right, all throughout the service. Shoot. I should have just done it! One shot I would have liked to have recorded would be that of the bishop entering the church, being greeted in the vestibule by the clergy, and then processing from the vestibule up the center aisle as while his train was lifted by some acolyte or other. So cool. It was fascinating, too, to watch him change from the outfit he arrived wearing (black robes, black veil, mantiya) into his vestments while standing on top of the platform.

As promised, there was alot of standing involved and people did meander about lighting candles before icons during the liturgy. Like the Ukrainians I find myself worshipping with lately, the worshippers at this Orthodox church all crowded in to the rear pews. Late arrivals (of which there were many) would even prevail upon already present worshippers to squeeze in so that they, too, could sit in a back pew rather than take a seat in any of the completely empty pews up front (about a quarter of the pews, all in front, on both sides of the aisle, were empty). Is this compulsive need to sit in the back common amongst Eastern Rite Christians?

Being a visitor and needing to watch others in order to follow, I, myself, sat in the very rear of the church, in one of a row of chairs lined up against the very back wall. I was amazed when worshippers in the last pew (in front of me) turned around half way through the service, and seeing the free seats next to me along the back wall, abandoned their rear pew to sit even further in back, where I had been seated alone all that time. I couldn't fathom it. It completely bewildered me.

But the service was sublime, truly. I would go again and again. I'll have to keep my eye on the schedules of the Catholic Eastern Rite churches in the area to see when their bishops are visiting. It would be wonderful to be able to fully participate in such a liturgy and not merely be an outsider observing.

Questions:

1. What was the significance of the little circular rugs that were constantly being repositioned by one of the clerics?

2. Why was the bishop's omophorion removed and replaced over and over again?

3. Why did the choir come down from the loft about three quarters of the way through the service and sing in the back of the church?

4. No throne for the bishop outside the icon screen like at the Greek Orthodox church I toured last week. How come?

"Like the Ukrainians I find myself worshipping with lately, the worshippers at this Orthodox church all crowded in to the rear pews. Late arrivals (of which there were many) would even prevail upon already present worshippers to squeeze in so that they, too, could sit in a back pew rather than take a seat in any of the completely empty pews up front (about a quarter of the pews, all in front, on both sides of the aisle, were empty). Is this compulsive need to sit in the back common amongst Eastern Rite Christians?

Being a visitor and needing to watch others in order to follow, I, myself, sat in the very rear of the church, in one of a row of chairs lined up against the very back wall. I was amazed when worshippers in the last pew (in front of me) turned around half way through the service, and seeing the free seats next to me along the back wall, abandoned their rear pew to sit even further in back, where I had been seated alone all that time. I couldn't fathom it. It completely bewildered me."


As a lifelong Eastern Christian, I can tell you that your observation about people sitting mostly in the rear of the church is accurate. I don't know of any particular reason for this, but I've seen it in practically every Orthodox and Greek Catholic church I've been in.

The exception always seems to be Pascha and Christmas when the church is full front to back.

I will let the more academic posters give answer to most of your questions. I have always kept myself almost to the edge of the Ambon during services. I think it goes back to the fact that we started as a church no bigger than a garden shed. All squeezed in for every service. As the years went by and the building grew people would move further back. Mostly the males on the right. I guess it was something about space for the servers and priest. But we always just worked around him in the past. You should go on a regular Sunday sometime. But I would go to vigil on Saturday, there you can get a real feel for the services. =It is the Vigil that is the bulk of the cycle. I you do that, it will lend to the full understanding of the feast day or even just the culmination of everything that is the Liturgy.