www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West WRO if Catholics/Orthodox unite?

There have been many discussions to the tune of "What would happen to Eastern Catholics if (when) Catholics and Orthodox reunite?"

I don't recall any discussion of what would happen to Western-Rite Orthodox if Catholics and Orthodox reunite -- if there has been such a thread, feel free to refer me to it rather than responding to my question here.

The Catholic Church has, of course, Anglican-Use parishes, but only in the Latin Church.
The Melkite Catholic Church, for example, has no such thing, while the Antiochian Orthodox Church (among others) has some Western-Rite parishes. What would happen with those WR parishes in the event of reunion?

I think the WRO would be subsumed into Latin rite Christianity, obviously.

However, I do think this exercise is simply engaging in fantasy speculation as I do not think the churches will unite or ever even have some sort of inter-communion. I say this because, in spite of Benedict XVI's best efforts, Roman Catholicism is becoming more Protestant in almost every way, every day. The horses are out of the barn. Orthodoxy, to it's credit, at least seems to be struggling to keep the barn doors closed.

It actually wasn't obvious to me that you thought that, but perhaps that's just because I don't know you very well.


Yes and no: I do think there's a certain amount of fantasy speculation going on in the when-reunion-happens threads; but that doesn't mean reunion is impossible. Heck, a couple centuries ago a moon landing was a pretty far-out speculation.

I've heard people say things like "well, I never thought the Berlin Wall would come down in my lifetime!" or "who ever thought we'd all be speaking on cell phones like we do now?" as "arguments" that Orthodoxy and Catholicism could once again be in communion. These examples of technological change or political developments, and there are many, are just another kind of the "anything is possible" line of anti-reasoning. The fact many unlikely things become real does not at all mean that anything is possible because . . . . anything is NOT possible. It is appropriately called "wishful thinking."

Orthodoxy and Catholicism have been on different paths for well over a thousand years and in this time the gulf between them has become very wide indeed, (theology, tradition, spirituality) in spite of all the pleasant things that various heirarchs on each side of the fence often say when they are in each other's company. They are just being civil I think. Public figures these days can take an awful beating in the court of public opinion if they don't stay pleasant. Yes, sadly, I think our heirarchs are sensitive to this.

Lately, it seems that some in leadership are finally beginning to understand the reality on the ground. Voices in Rome and Moscow, for instance, are now talking about "ways in which the churches can cooperate on issues of common concern." That is the best we can hope for in our lifetimes.

At the end of all the decades of theological dialogues, we still have to deal with all the terrible things we have done to each other over the centuries. That's not something to be taken lightly and there is still a lot of hurt and bitterness that goes deep. There are even some people on this forum, both Catholics and Orthodox, who have had martyrs in their own families and who can tell you the stories.

Sometimes I think that Catholics who engage in too much of this "wishful thinking" about "reunion" are like the Anglicans who for years just knew that someday Rome and Canterbury would get back together. That's worked out real well for the Anglicans, hasn't it?

For those who like to use the term "reunion" I would say that I don't think history shows that the churches were "united" in the past, at least in the way a Roman Catholic typically thinks. The churches were in communion with each other and that is a very different thing.

I hope you don't think my words rude or uncharitable - that is not the way I intend this response. In my life I try very hard to deal with what is right in front of me. I personally find fantasy, wishful thinking and speculation, to be very dangerous things.

I understand WRO are actually EO using latin liturgy, their spirituality and theology is thoroughly eastern. I read that even their rubrics have been somewhat changed to meet EO standards, so I don't see how they would fit in in the Latin Church in the event of a reunion, unless that reunion is accomplished by throwing out the window 1000 years of western theology and spirituality and that I believe has zero chances of succeeding.

I don't. In fact, it's kind of a refreshing change: I frequently talk about this sort of thing with people who speak as though "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is either right around the next corner, or else is right in front of us if we only have eyes to see it.

Going back to the first thing you said,



I have to disagree. I'm not at all sure what would happen, but I feel certain that what you suggest wouldn't happen. Being in communion with Rome is one thing, but being in the Latin Church is quite another.

I agree. (I didn't see your post until now.)

I am afraid that, in my admittedly limited experience, this isn't a safe supposition. I firmly believe that Eastern Orthodox praxis and spirituality are rooted and shaped by our participation in Byzantine rite liturgical life. I've come across WRO faithful that are good Orthodox people, but their spirituality could not be described as 'Eastern'. One might ask, why should it be? Does spirituality have to be Eastern to be Orthodox... ?

Christ is in our midst!!

Perhaps in a way similar to the way Anglicans are being brought into communion with Rome--through personal prelatures with their own bishops.

Bob

I agree, Fr. Mark. I would suggest

Well, I gathered that information from a member of a WRO church, so I took his word for it, I'm no expert on any kind of spirituality and I'm certainly not a theologian.

B.t.w. when I said western spirituality I meant spirituality as in the RC church since we are talking about an eventual reunion I don't know if the OP was also including protestantism. I also think there isn't such a thing as A western spirituality, but many. Different religious orders have their own spirituality, think about the differences among jesuits, carmelites, franciscans, benedictins, cistersians, opus day, etc. Even within the same order you have different flavors e.g St. Therese of Lisieaux, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross. I find RC spirituality extremely varied.

I think we shouldn't be worried about speaking about spiritualities rather than spirituality, as long as we're not talking about exclusivity. Spirituality is like a language through which we express, communicate, even interpret Tradition. Holy Tradition is the core and Christian people, in all of their diversity, express it in slightly different ways, stressing different things. My Serbian friends have Slava as a core to their spirituality as an Orthodox people and as a family. Most of us do not share this, yet we share the faith and ideas expessed in and through it.

To an extent, in the East and talk about Athonite, Serbian, Romanian or Old Believer spirituality, yet these will overlap in many places and represent the realisation and expression of theology, prayer, liturgy... daily Christian life within a particular community.

This community aspect is the key. Too often there is stress on individual spirituality in the 'West'. I choose this spirituality, you chose that. This is nonsense in a community whose life is rooted in shared experience of Holy Tradition, centred on the Liturgy and the common life of prayer, fasting, feasting etc.

I have never come across such common spirituality with my RC friends and acquaintances (apart from monastics), just focal points and 'enthusiasms'... Fatima, Latin Mass Society, Medjugore, Taize, Padre Pio. I get little sense of common spiritual life and praxis. Perhaps this is very British and things are different elsewhere or perhaps even in UK cities with parishes established for national groups, eg the various Polish parishes where this is vibrant community church life.

In America it's a bit of both. The way they do Mass and the kind of homilies they have betray their community's sentiments (demographic, culture, etc.), but at the same time you don't really get this overarching sense of "we're Roman Catholics" from place to place. Everyone kind of does their own thing the rest of the time. I can't speak from experience about different parishes in the Byzantine Church, but I did get the impression from where I've been that there's shared identity among them.

I think it just boils down to the Liturgy. In the West people had done their own thing before, at, and after the Mass and -- even though it's more of a work of the people nowadays -- that individualistic attitude still shows in how each community kind of chooses what type of liturgy they like. Whereas in the East there seems to be much less community influence on the Divine Liturgy and thus it's a steady identifier/glue.

No, I wasn't really considering protestants when I started this thread.