www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Even after baptism is it still possible to work "in the flesh"?

Maybe some of those on here with a Protestant background will understand where I'm coming from with this. I've been feeling like I'm graceless lately, like I'm doing everything out of my own effort and not through grace. I don't feel those fruit of the Spirit and I'm worn out and anxious. It's like I'm trying to save myself by works out of a misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine that was fed to me in my Baptist/Calvinist/Christianity-isn't-a-religion days. And while I know my theology well enough to realize that is wrong, I can't seem to stop myself.

I can certainly relate...there is quite a Pelagian streak both in some quarters of catholocism which tends to measure faith by the number of rosaries, confessions, fasts, etc AND some quarters of Protestantism where faith is measured by being able to quote scripture by chapter and verse, coming forward in a revival meeting, or speaking in tongues.

Against both of those similar-yet-opposite extremes I find the Lutheran proclamation of the Gospel of salvation by God's grace received in faith liberating and refreshing. Ephesians 2:4 is the cornerstone of that proclamation; yet it must be read in context at least through verse 10. Luther said that it is as impossible to separate good works from faith as it is to separate
fire from light and heat.

HB:

Christ is in our midst!!

Couple of things.

What does your spiritual father say about this? Are you aware that there are "dry" periods in our Christian walk when we are tested as to our resolve? Are you aware that this is normal?

Are you aware that the Christian life/walk is not a do-it-yourself project? Are you aware that people can get themselves way off track when they try to go it alone and evaluate themselves alone?

We're not called to live in anxiety. We're called to have "the peace from above." This latter is the firm conviction deep inside our souls that no matter what happens--the good, the bad, the happy, the sad, and the glad--Jesus Christ is in charge of the circumstances of our lives and us, too, if we but allow Him to do so. We can stand by ourselves and fret until He comes or we can let Him in to be the pilot of our lives.

In the meantime, we walk with Him by our side each and every hour of each and every day. That's the Covenant He made with us in Baptism when we wre "plunged" into Him, His Passion, and His promises. We do what we can and--as my own spiritual father once told me--we don't push so hard that we exhaust ourselves and give up. In the end He gives us what we need and helps us along the way.

Have you considered this dry period may be that He has backed off because you are trying so hard there's no room for Him to help or even be part of your life?

One more thought. It has been my experience that when I feel most dry; most unproductive (there goes that work ethic thing again); most like I haven't begun the Christian walk that it is others who have come along and remarked that they have been edified by the way I live my life and the example I give. So it is not my own evaluation; it is that of the Lord sent to me through others.

Bob

Although I've definitely been on a dry spell -- partially brought on by refusing to become Byzantine when I had clear signs that I should -- I think what happened is that I was doing good works out of a sense of duty and debt rather than love. I was trying to get myself saved instead of treating myself AS saved and then applying its power. IOW, I took on a Pelagian bent. I had a Luther moment you could say, and like him I became fearful and duty-bound trying to be good enough. I can never be good enough to earn salvation! I was acting like man was made to be a slave to salvation and not that salvation was made for man.

Just pray that I might not fall into the opposite extreme and turn antinomian!

I've heard that question asked of myself and of others a few times, now. I don't know what HeavenlyBlacks's situation is, but I haven't got any such luxury as a "spiritual father"? I'm sure I'm not alone amongst Roman Catholics in that respect. I take it that having a dedicated "spiritual father" is an a common enough thing amongst Orthodox Christians or Byzantine Catholics?

I think most Roman Catholics in the 21st century (the ones who are bothering to try to live as good Christians, that is) go to confession when they can, and not always to the same confessor. Spiritual direction comes typically from the weekly homily at Sunday Mass, and from...sources such as EWTN, from Catholic radio, from the Catholic internet, and forums like this one.

Unfortunately for people like HeavenlyBlack and myself and others who are trying to seek guidance from Catholic media due to the general unavailability of clergy, those giving the answers on Catholic call-in shows on the radio or Catholic Answers Forum or blogs like WDTPRS or Abbey-Roads or Catholic and Enjoying It are frequently rude, snarky, belittling, defensive, arrogant, vitriolic, judgmental, dismissive, and frequently just plain bewildering. It's easy to be made to feel a fool or a failure because you aren't gaily skipping along and loving every minute of being in complete harmony with the currently in-vogue opinions and delights of the conservative Catholic media establishment. Everything's always going just swimmingly for them, and if you aren't getting it...well...next caller.

I get HeavenlyBlack. I know what he's going through. I don't know the answers but I also know that having a spiritual director isn't a given for every Catholic in this day and age. And it doesn't help that the venues we turn to for guidance in lieu of spiritual directors are so frequently...appalling. I except this venue from my critique; the Byzantine Forum has a great spirit about it. But alot of people do struggle with the faith due to very good questions that arise...questions that one often gets slapped for asking. And that doesn't help. Not everybody can blithely skip along the Yellow Brick Road without noticing all those strange-looking monkeys flying around from time-to-time. HeavenlyBlack, I think, is the type of Catholic who does spot the flying monkeys and is vexed by them...and likewise, perhaps, vexed by the fact that many of his fellow Catholics either don't see them, or deny them, or just don't seem to be vexed by them. But it's hard for some Catholics to force themselves to take no notice of the flying monkeys and to merrily skip along as if they aren't there or as if they're of no consequence.

HeavenlyBlack, one thing I've noticed is that it's easy to mistake discouragement from the Devil and his minions (be they from his world or from our own) for a silent disapproval emanating from God. If you're hearing a voice within you that says, "you're cut off, I've had it with you...nothing you can do or say is going to make a difference...victory was yours, but you blew it...and now you're just offending me everytime you pretend to pray, and I'm ignoring you...you're going spiritually blind and I'm letting you because you deserve it, etc, etc, etc,"...that's not God talking to you. Guess who that is.

I guess my advice would be to remind you that discouragement and despair don't come from God...not ever. God always calls us to keep trying and to keep growing and to keep learning and to walk with him as free Christians...as free Christians who are free to keep learning and to keep growing. Mistakes we all make. Mistakes a sure sign that you're trying. Only Christians who aren't trying never make mistakes.

If I had to bet...I would bet that you're alot better off than Christians who might diagnose you as hopeless. Obviously, the Devil has it in for you. Why is that? If you were no threat to him...he wouldn't bother with you. Would he? It seems clear enough to me that you're doing something that makes him lose sleep at night. It also seems clear that he doesn't want you to realize that. Lots of smoke screens. That's what I see.

You're not being discouraged by God, HB, you're being manipulated by the enemy. So...next time he tries to discourage you, perhaps by reminding you of your past...I think you ought to just turn right around and remind him of his future.

YES!

That is precisely the meaning of the first words of the first section of the prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian:

RI:

Christ is in our midst!!

Some good advice and some good thoughts.

A spiritual father is far different from a spiritual director, The first gets to know a person coming for guidance and is given the gift to discern what is necessary for the spiritual health and growth of the person. The latter is one who endeavors to mold the person coming into a preconceived pattern or spirituality. It is true that is difficult for Roman Catholics to find the first because clergy are not trained themselves to be spiritual fathers. Additinal confusion comes in when the two terms are mixed as if they were merely two terms for the same thing.



When you see or hear anything remotely like this, you have neither a spiritual father nor spiritual director. You have a pretender; someone who is threatened by anyone who seriously questions anything. It is the one who questions, the one who wants to know the "why" behind everything--and there is a reason to be found--who is a threat to the one who thinks if he gets the ritual right, the answers right, and everything else "right," he's got a guarantee. Nothing could be farther from the truth; ask the Pharisees that Jesus condemned in the Scriptures. IMHO, people who resort to the behavior you describe aren't spiritual, aren't on the right track, and their criticism is to be not to be take, even with several grains of salt.



That's why the very spirit of this particular forum is what it is--we're all here trying to help each other, realizing that no one here is infallible.



Got that one. Sometimes it seems like that's all there is. But sometimes you have to work on praying for the gift of discernment so you can distinguish them from what's important.



Reminds me of a story from the Desert Fathers.

A young monk went to an older one and told him of his thoughts and the temptations. The old man told him he was lost and ought to give up. As the young monk was "going back to the world" one of the elders of the monastery saw him, asked what troubled him, and revealed that if he were to have the temptations this elder had he'd probably throw himself off a cliff. With that he encourarged the young man to go back to his cell and persevere in his discipline. Then the elder prayed that the temptations given to the young man would be sent to the old man who had discouraged him. It seems that the guy went out of his mind as if he were drunk. End of story, the old man learned from the elder that, even though he'd been a long time in the monastic state, the Enemy hadn't until then considered him worth the time to war against, as far as temptations go.

Moral of the story is that we are given the crosses we can bear as long as we avail ourselves of the Lord and His grace. He will not let us be tempted beyond our strength. Some can't bear crosses and they seem to be threatened when they see others struggling. They get the false impression that the one struggling is somehow morally inferior when in fact it is the opposite--the one struggling is being strengthened for the bigger storms of life. How many I've seen in my work who have lived relatively peaceful faith lives, but who fall completely apart when confronted with a real serious trial.

So let's continue to encourage each other. Like a pack of pencils that cannot be broken together because together they have greater resistance than alone, let's pick each other up when we see our brother or sister struggling.

Bob

Thanks, for your points, and example on this particular subject. Heavenly Black, it's sad to hear about the initial reception from those sources you referenced.

RI, thanks for your points, and examples.

I sometimes struggle with clearly discerning what is truly from God, as oppose to what is disguised as advice from an angel of light.

Lester:

Christ is in our midst!!

I think we're all in the same boat. That's why its important to keep reviewing the primary sources of the Faith, especially when something comes along that seems a bit "off." It's also important to seek out priest both for confession and to regularly touch base with to stay on track.

Bob

Bob, your last point hits it home. Before even considering the study of Eastern Christianity, I've often thought about approaching the Roman Catholic priest, at the Roman parish I've been going to, since having moved to the spot I'm in now, to be my spiritual father. Not that I dislike psychologists, but I think I've needed spiritual guidance, since returning to my "roots," seven years ago. Since this priest in question has left for retirement (?), I found another priest at the Eastern/Byzantine Catholic church I've been going to for the last month.

Is a spiritual father a role mutually agreed upon, by both the seeker, and the one being sought? Or is it something the seeker can approach the sought, and seeing this person in the light of the spiritual father?

Like RI said, something like this is rather foreign (relatively, from my experience, thus far) idea to Roman/Latin Catholics. Thanks, in advance!

Lester:

Christ is in our midst!!



A good place to start. The first priest I ever approached to be my spiritual father was Roman Catholic. I merely made an appointment to talk with him about hte direction of my spiritual life. I asked for some suggestions about what I might begin to read. At the time--late 1960s--his advice was that I was NOT to read the Scriptures: that's what he'd been taught in the seminary. Things are quite different now.

There are several reading formats for reading the Scriptures in one year. There is another for reading the Catholic Catechism in one year. That's a good start if you are Roman Catholic and will keep you busy for the next two years.

You might also discuss what he would suggest for a prayer rule. Now that's an Eastern term, but it means that you want to commit to praying on a regular, disciplined basis. You'll discuss your schedule and lifestyle to see how much is possible and how much would be overload, especially given the commitment above to regular reading and study. I knew an Orthodox priest with four children and two parishes. He told me his rule was to go to his parish church each evening during the week at 7 p.m. for a half hour to pray. That's what he could do, given all his other responsibilities. So what works for you is something you'll have to explore and work on. There's no reason to feel you've failed if you have to adjust any of this because we are not monastics and we live in a world with many demands on us--family, work, friends, organizations, etc.

Then you might ask for a regular apointment--maybe in two months to start, more often if you think you're having a problem. In these meetings, you might ask questions you have of Scripture passages or of the other reading you're doing. He may suggest a class that is going on in the parish with people with similar interests for discussions of the same material.

That's a start.

I've shied away from clergy who want to up-end my whole life with their own idea of what direction I ought to go. Several years ago, I had a pastor deeply into New Age spirituality and authors. After a very short time, I moved on. That's not to say that when you begin you ought to "shop" for clergy whose opinions you already share or be moving on at the drop of a hat. There are many good men out there. Someone you know might suggest someone. Give the one you choose a chance. Spiritual fathers are men to form a relationship with and that takes time and effort on both sides.

Bob

As I'm going through a rough job hunt, I've often prayed. But, this perspective I've highlighted, is something I just thought about now, and made me think about how I'm approaching my own prayer life. I always thought about not being enslaved by something, but I never thought about whether or not I lived, or acted on it. Just now, I realized the antithesis of the stated mentality (being enslaved to salvation) was what turned me onto the Divine Liturgy, in the first place. Thanks for bringing this up, Heavenly Black.

Thanks guys. And yes, I've always had the feeling that Satan hates me and ARRRGH there's so many flying monkeys in the Roman Church these days. I fell into a angry trad rut for a while there but I am so sick of "conservatism". They seem to just be a bunch of angry moralists. I think moralism, legalism, and pietism are really ripping Western Christianity to shreds these days --- on both sides of the left/right divide. Let's get back to transformative gospel truth! Christianity isn't an ideology or a moral code to follow and judge others by, it isn't something aimed at stirring up sentiments and self-helpism. It's deification. It's like talk therapy vs. rehabilitation.

I echo your frustration(s). Having been raised in a Roman Catholic Filipino family (which can carry double connotations, situation pending), I got a lot of legalistic vibes from my parents, when it came to the way I dressed for worship. I think there's a difference between respectful attire, and such characterized as vainglorious.

Having gone to a Ruthenian parish for a month, and change, I met a lot of parishioners who used to be in the Roman rite. One of them, told me her opinion regarding why she gravitates heavily towards the Byzantine rite: The Byzantine rite, and those who practice it, don't seemingly worry about what the protestants are doing. Having said this, I can somewhat see what she means by that, by virtue of how often my parents, and their peers would offer prescriptions what tones worship should take.

Bob:

What a great response; thank you. This forum truly is, as you mention, a horse of a different color and I'm so appreciative of it. It really has helped me alot and it's clear that I'm not alone in that regard.