www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Downtown Orthodoxy vs. Strip-Mall Othodoxy

I thought that many of you would find this essay by Federica Matthewes-Green interesting: http://www.orthodoxnews.org/index.c...0&CFID=27141613&CFTOKEN=26458644

Dear Vito,

While I thank you for this article, and I generally like the writings of Frederica Mathews-Greene, I am frankly getting tired of what I am personally starting to perceive as an agenda, set forth by the Antiochian jurisdiction, to put down the ethnic churches (most especially the Greek Orthodox) in order to establish one administrativly united Orthodox church that will exchange the culturally 'ethnic' flavors they so dislike (Greek,Syrian,Russian) for a culturally 'ethnic' church of another color--that of the American culture.
Hasn't the American culture permeated the world enough?

In Christ,
Alice

P.S. Contrary to what Khouria Mathews-Greene would like to think and believe, churches like my suburban Greek Orthodox parish and others around the NY/NJ/CT area like it, are growing by leaps and bounds. My parish official membership is currently at about 500 families, and another one close by is at 1000 families. Everyone is welcome. It is not an enclave for just those of Greek descent. Half or more of our families are comprised of interfaith couples.

Dear Alice,
I certainly can appreciate your point about Khouria's article. There's always a danger we face about over-generalizing and stereotypes. Perhaps her article reflects this. I do think your comments, contrasting with hers about an American Orthodox Church, reflect the current split in thinking towards Orthodox unification. Thanks for your views. In Christ, Vito

Dear Vito,

I do need to clarify that whereas the Greek Orthodox Church in America may be 'Greek' in some senses, it has been Americanized enough (pews, organ music, priests with short beards or no beards, and Western style collars, female chanters and readers at times, Sunday School, youth groups, usage of English in the services, homilies, etc.) that Greeks from Greece don't fully recognize it. Most Antiochians do not think that goes far enough, however.

They would like us to think only of the U.S., forego imbued historical sensibilites and concern for our European counterparts, and sever ties with the Patriarch of Constantinople in order to conform to their ideas of what an American Orthodox Church should be.

While they may think that they are more Orthodox than a cradle Greek Orthodox in praxis, they also advocate modernist changes such as allowing married bishops.

The world has become to small, and the future of Christianity too precarious for us to turn our backs on Europe and our history. People of this mind cannot dictate what they want our faith to be or to become.

After reading books such as 'Father Arseny' (Russian), 'Gifts of the Desert',(Cypriot) etc., I am more convinced than ever that true Orthodox spirituality is kept alive and pure for us on the shores of our forefathers, and we should not allow that treasure to become misinterpreted and altered. They are our lifeline and we should not cut them off.

Just my opinions.

In Christ,
Alice

To offer a middle-of-the-road view (an unusual place to find me!), I have a couple of criticisms of the article, and a deeper criticism (along Alice's line) of the underlying idea.

The article correctly states that the Antiochian Archdiocese was among the first to realize the need to have a serious outreach to those whose primary identification was American. So they were - and it wasn't in the late nineteen-eighties. Metropolitan Antony appreciated the point as early as the nineteen-thirties. Thus his Archdiocese early took the lead in publishing service-books and other essential materials in English and in establishing parishes which of set purpose welcomed Orthodox and prospective Orthodox of any and all national backgrounds. For this Metropolitan Antony deserves to be remembered with honor.

It is simply inaccurate to assert that all the ethnic-based Roman Catholic parishes in the USA have become "general American" - numerous such parishes have done nothing of the kind and many of the remaining ethnic parishes are quite active and dynamic. These days it is more common for Americans (although still a minority) to have a heightened appreciation of the value of knowing more than one language and having a good cross-cultural awareness.

While it is indisputably true that the Church in the USA must be prepared to serve people through English (and Spanish), and be able to found parishes enthusiastically and gladly to serve Orthodox Christians in places where there is an insufficient ethnic base for any one group, let alone several groups, to have distinct ethnic parishes but there are quite enough Orthodox Christians of various ethnic groups to have a thriving parish, it is also true that the whole idea of "American Orthodoxy" has not yet received the careful consideration which is needed. In most other situations, Orthodoxy has shaped the local cultures, and formed them into Christian, Orthodox cultures. Romanian culture and Russian culture are far from identical - but they are both of them Orthodox.

American culture, such as it is, does have Christian roots - but they are mostly Protestant, with certain Roman Catholic roots in some specific places. The Puritans of Massachusetts, the Unitarians of Rhode Island, the Presbyterians of Pennsylvania, the Episcopalians and Baptists in much of the Old South or the Roman Catholics of Florida, New Mexico and California do not in themselves provide a basis for an American Orthodox culture. Hence Orthodoxy in America still requires a cultural matrix from one or another of the existing Orthodox cultures - with a growing awareness that the Orthodox Christian in the USA is the rightful heir of everything Orthodox that has ever entered the USA.

Also one must note the sad truth that there is still resistance to the entry of converts into Eastern Orthodoxy in the USA - not as much resistance as there was, thank God, but it is not yet negligible.

I don't have the answers, but I do at least have some of the questions. This whole vast area is of critical importance both for the present and for the future; it behooves us to give it serious thought and careful attention.

Incognitus

Oddly, I disagree, Alice...Greek, Russia, etc have all become much more secular.

I think that the one thing most needful that the Antiochians have overlooked is a monastic presence. They refuse to allow monasteries...and it is there they make their major mistake.

Also, Khouria Frederica fails to realize that the reason many ethnic churches are full of old people is that the young ones cannot find jobs in those run-doiwn neighbourhoods where the church building they grew up in has stood for over a century.

As to the rest, she is right. The majority of cradle Orthodox are poorly educated about their faith, and many don't understand the language the Liturgy is in. It has historically been the practice of Orthodoxy to use the language of the people. Lately, in America, there is too much resistance to that in many ethnic churches of all flavours. Sorry, but people need to understand, or they will leave for places that they can understand.

Gaudior, in English, with my two cents.

Dear Gaudior,

I did not mean nor insinuate that I am against the primary usage of the English language, which, OFCOURSE I advocate! I don't even recall that being mentioned in the article.

I also did not mean nor mention or insinuate that the practice of secular lay people of Russia and Greece is to be emulated here. As someone who spends alot of time in modern Greece, I am all too aware of the shortcomings of their modern societies--I was referring to the spirituality and traditional, undiluted faith of Orthodoxy as held by the Church there. The monastic presence you mention is exactly what I am referring to, as that is *exactly* what I admire in the spirituality as practiced and taught by the Church in Greece.

The 'ecclesia' survives despite the shortcomings and sins of lay AND clergy.

I am sorry that you misread my post.

In Christ,
Alice

P.S. to Gaudior:

Not only do the Antiochians NOT have a monastic presence, but I have heard the more outspoken persons of the Antiochian 'agenda' actually urge people NOT to visit Fr. Ephraim's Athonite monasteries in the U.S. They are vocally against them and therefore, for that and other reasons, I am quite suspicious of their 'agenda'.

Sincerely,
Alice, one who was once in favor of administrative unity and Orthodox unity *until* I heard the particulars of their particular agenda, including (but not reserved to) the defamation of Fr. Ephraim's monasteries, the advocacy of breaking with the Ecumenical Patriarch, and the subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, negativities aimed at the Greek Orthodox Church in America...these are certainly not borne of the fruits of the Holy Spirit that would otherwise unify us and bridge our differences in agape love.

I doubt very much that there is a REAL agenda.

On the other hand, I have personally heard monastics at one of Geronda Ephraim's monasteries telling converts that they are not Orthodox, as they were "only" Chrismated. Given that many OCA and Antiochian Orthodox ARE converts, hearing this sort of stupidity actually said to them as pilgrims to the monastery (which then proceeded to tell them that they could not commune), I can understand that their "agenda" is to recommend that people avoid those monasteries.

I understand that some are excellent, but others are appallingly un-Orthodox.

Gaudior, who remains firm on this point: ALL those received into the Orthodox Church are Orthodox...whether the monastics think so, or not.

Dear Gaudior,

As I feel this conversation and my words are continuing to be misread, and because I don't find that it is developing in a spiritually edifying or loving brotherly manner, I will ask that it discontinue between us.

While I will agree there are 'kinks' that need to be worked out as Orthodoxy brings in more and more converts, putting down the beautiful and holy spirituality of Athonite monasteries, of whose great holiness I have experienced personally, is not enlightening to Orthodoxy on a whole nor to the Lenten spirit or the spirit of love, unity and peace that this board hopes to promote to Christians of all Eastern and Western persuasions.

Let us leave it at that. Thank you.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

I am in full agreement with Alice. I like the concept of Orthodox unity, but the agenda put forth by the Antiochians and groups like the OCL wants Orthodoxy on their own terms, which to many, such as myself, find unorthodox. I had to smile when Alice spoke about the Antiochian's off the cuff remarks about the GOC. Alice, try being ROCOR! I've even been told that I'm not Orthodox! And I can speak from experience that the GOC is not hostile in the slightest to non Greeks. Once, while traveling, I felt the urge to pray. As things usually work out, I was passing a small Greek Church in Reading PA. I saw that the doors were open, so I stopped just to light a candle and say a few prayers. Liturgy was in progress (On a Tuesday morning, no less, and there were about 30 people there. So I stayed for liturgy. There was an older gentleman serving as an acolyte, who came up to me and asked in Greek if I was Orthodox. Now the only Greek I know is some Koine Greek, from my seminary days. You should have seen the look on his face when this 6'7" bearded Russian answered him in liturgical Greek. He hurried back in to the altar and returned immediately saying that Father wanted to see me in the altar. So thru the doors I went. The priest asked who I was, and on finding that I was Russian, asked me to chant the creed in Slavonic. So I did, in Znamenny! To this day, it remains one of the most pleasant memories that I have regarding Orthodox Christians of other denominations.
As to Geronda Ephraim's Monasteries, I can speak from personal experience that they are the best thing to come out of the GOC in the past 50 years! This Russian boy, who uses Jordanville as a standard to compare everything to, is extremely impressed at what I saw and experienced at the 3 monasteries of Geronda Ephraim that I have visited. Athos in Arizona!

Just my 2 cents

Alexandr

Hmm. Is this thread no longer locked ?

Dear Harmon,

It must be a ghost. We have one in our house. It seems the door bell that usually has two rings, rings once with no one at the door.

Well it's driving the dog crazy. The first time it happened she refused to accept that no one was there. She walked out the door and looked all around.

Zenovia

Hooray ! The thread is open again!

I would like to say that I find a lot worth thinking about with all of these posts.

I am especially interested in what Gaudior pointed out: the role of monasticism in maintaining and growing Orthodoxy. Happily, here in Ohio, we are blessed to have an Orthodox monastery that is free from the kind of bigotry that Gaudior described. It is St. Gregory Palamas monastery, outside of Mansfield, Ohio (i.e., south of Cleveland, Ohio by an hour or so). http://sgpm.goarch.org/Monastery/index.php It is genuinely open to everyone who is seeking spiritual refreshment: Orthodox and anyone else. And while it is affiliated with the Greek Orthodox Church, it has monks (and visitors) from several Orthodox jurisidictions. And the spirituality there is just so filled with grace ! I wish the Eastern Catholics had a monastery like that in my part of the country. In my area, there isn't one Catholic men's monastery. I think monasteries could do a lot of good for the laity and the regular clergy: by example, by prayer, as spiritual hospitals, and as places of spiritual refreshment.

-- John

By the way, when the thread was locked, I started another topic to continue the discussion. If you want, you can read that post at: https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000454;p=1#000000

-- John