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Dear John,

I know that the Orthodox monastics will be a hindrance to unity between the Churches. I guess because they are not all saints. In the book I'm reading 'The Mountain of Silence' by a Sociology professor 'Kyriacos C. Markidis', he stated that a Catholic monk that spoke fluent Greek went to Mt. Athos. He was known only by the head Elder and his host who is certainly a living saint.

Well he must have been partaking of the Eucharist, or the other monks would have noticed. When he left with his host, they stopped at the home of a blind living saint outside of Athens. This saint told him that the monastery he was part of in Italy, was in great danger. The water was contaminated and a large boulder was ready to fall on it.

He also told him where they could dig for fresh water, and it all turned out to be exactly as the saint said.

But then again saints are different, and not all monks are saints. Actually the saintly person that the book is about, says that fundamentalism and intolerance is because someone lacks full spiritual growth.

It seems from what I'm reading, saints are so full of love towards everyone that they even pray for demons.

Zenovia

"I wish the Eastern Catholics had a monastery like that in my part of the country. In my area, there isn't one Catholic men's monastery. I think monasteries could do a lot of good for the laity and the regular clergy: by example, by prayer, as spiritual hospitals, and as places of spiritual refreshment."

Try Holy Trinity Monastery in Butler, PA. About 40 miles north of Pittsburgh.

As one who joined this forum last year but who has waited until now to post, I would like to strongly voice my support for Alice's remarks.
I'm a convert to Orthodoxy and am blessed to have Archbishop Dimitri of Dallas as my Hierarch.
I have learned much from my pious Russian, Bulgarian,Serbian and Greek brothers and sisters.

If you will allow a non-Orthodox creature to add his 2 rubles worth (2 drachma?) North America and, to a certain extent, South America are examples of all sorts of "violations" of jurisdiction. Historically, a land "belonged" to the Church that first catechized it. The Latin Church modified this to allow lands to belong to the religious group (Franciscan, Jesuit, etc.) and the country of the group that first catechized the lands. Thus, Mexico became a Spanish/Franciscan territory.

However, with the Orthodox a strange thing happened. They arrived, but not not extend a claim over the whole territory (if they had, North America would be Russian since they were here first). So, we have overlapping territories which implies overlapping episcopal oversight. This is totally against the historical development of the Church.

If we look at Russia, we find that they were technically Greek and, eventually, gained autocephalous status -- but the country was theirs.

Yes, the Antiochians are seeking autocephalous status and, by extension, hope to make the United States (at least) "theirs."

If one looks at a strictly historical perspective on this -- that's at least reasonable (although why them instead of the Russians is a serious question). On the other hand, what has developed here in the "New World" is a new ecclesiology in which the ethnic basis for church selection remains a significant factor (look at the Ukrainian Church to see how they welcome those who are not ethnically related).

Is one ecclesiology better than the other? I don't think so. Had this happened 200 years ago I doubt that the issue would raise an eyebrow. But today we are too far down this particular road to seek such unity. Better the unity of faith (one faith, one baptism, one Lord).

Fr. Deacon Edward

Although I cannot speak to Alice's first point, I would hardly call advocating for bishops "who are married only once," as a modernist change. This was a qualification for the episcopacy as cited by St Paul (cf. 1 Timothy 3:1-7).

Yes Deacon Edward, you are correct. The Orthodox situation in America is highly irregular. But not always so. Until the bolshevik usurption of the Orthodox Russian Empire, all the Orthodox Churches in America were under the omophor of the Russian hierarchs. It was the turmoil resulting from the revolution that left the churches to seek episcopates from their individual countries, thus the confusion that the local Churches have inherited today. But things will change. Orthodox Russia has returned. At this moment, talks are going on with the MP and the Russian Church Abroad. Canonical correctness will return to America, despite the antics of Antioch, who canonically have no jurisdiction here. All we can do is be patient, pray and support each other.

Alexandr

Alice, I actually have to say I�m incredibly hurt by these statements. I don�t particularly care for the article, because I feel it simply falls in to generalizations and has some glaring inaccuracies. Maybe your impression and experience is that most Antiochians have these negative traits you outline, in my experience it is not the case, although I�m sure in some instances it is. The accusation of spiritual pride in your last statement I find particularly startling and I myself as a member of the jurisdiction in question feel personal humiliation that you think such a thing exists among myself and those I know.and worship with. The things you say most Antiochians feel don�t go far enough, frankly I know of few people who support such things at all.

Aside from these things, I can only add a few thoughts that probably really don�t add up to much or shed any additional light on anything.

The first thing that comes to mind is that there seems to me to be some level of variance within the Greek Archdiocese about these issues that are being discussed here. At least that is my impression. Regarding governance and autonomy, there are certainly various viewpoints. Just consider Ligonier, Archbishop Iakovos, the OCL, etc. Regarding the Ephraimite monasteries, again I think within the GOA there have been different perspectives on them. Regarding the article posted, compare it with one published recently on Orthodoxytoday by Fr. Aris Metrakos.

Regarding the Antiochian Archdiocese, I guess I feel they get some things right and some things wrong. They are not perfect or better than anybody else. The lack of monastic focus is troubling. I don�t always agree with the leadership of the Archdiocese. At some point there will be a change in leadership and I think some new directions will be explored. I�ve heard both Bishop Joseph and Bishop Basil speak and I can truly say they are imbued with a true feeling of Christian love and a love for Orthodoxy. I also have to say in my experience there are some people who view the GOA and the Antiochians in the same light in terms of where they stand in the spectrum of Orthodoxy. To them, we�re not all that different.

To give a little personal perspective I would say this:

I ended up at an Antiochian parish by happenstance, but that is not how I view myself. I just think of myself as Orthodox without anything preceding that. I have however found many loving and Christian people in the Archdiocese and my parish. My parish also has several members who are cradle Greek Orthodox, including my wife�s sponsor and our children�s godparents. Whenever we can we go to services and other events at a few Greek parishes that are near us, and I always look forward to visiting them. I treasure what the people who brought Orthodoxy to this country have given us. I want what is best for the church both in America and wherever Orthodoxy is found. I believe there is bad and good to be found here and overseas, just as in our own souls the war between God and the Devil is played out and both good and bad can be found

On the topic of monasticism, I already aired a concern of mine. I will say in our parish our priest encourages the use of monastic practices in everyday life, of course that is principally regular prayer and adhering to the stated fasting practices of the church. He encourages people to visit monasteries whenever they can, and just recently his brother in law who converted a few years ago has become a novice at St. Gregory Palamas monastery in Ohio. We have also had some people who have visited the monastery in Florence. I believe Father no longer gives his blessing for people to do that though, or at least he does with reservation. A few years ago someone went there who entered the church via Chrismation and not baptism. They were not allowed to commune or participate in the services as a member of the church in full standing and it caused them to temporarily stumble in their faith. I am not attempting to judge those monks, because they are doing as they believe should be done, but it was a problem for at least one person.

Finally, I don�t care for conversations that center of criticizing other Orthodox jurisdictions. I�m sure negative things and scandals can be found in them all, but it is not what I enjoy discussing or reading. This comment

Are the type of thing I don�t like reading, and I�m not sensing support in that comment.

I believe I have said enough. This has been a difficult Lent for me. I feel ashamed that I�m happy we are two weeks from Pascha and that the fast will be over. Actually reading what I have tonight I just feel ashamed in general.

Andrew

Dear Orthodox brother in Christ Andrew,

I think that this has been an open and honest discussion concerning the many issues facing Orthodoxy today.

You should not be hurt about very honest concerns I or others have about the Antiochian church. However, many have been scandalized by remarks we have heard about the GOA. (If I had a penny for every time the EP was criticized or the GOA mocked and criticized on a particular internet forum of Antiochians, I could be writing to you from a luxury vacation in Tahiti right now rather than writing from home *wink*)

I don't think that this OCL type of approach is helping the Church as a whole at all. Neither do I think that remarks touting oneself above all other jurisdictions is particularly helpful or humbly Christian, either.

We will never be united if we cannot trust, uplift, respect and love one another, and that just hasn't been my experience, Andrew. If all Antiochians were like you, my experience might have been different.

Notice that no person has specifically been targeted publically.

Catholics on this board have their debates and concerns about the differences and challenges in their Church, and there is no reason that we should not as well. If we censor any such discussion, we will only allow our concerns to fester within us, thus causing nothing but anomosity between us.

I am sorry that you are hurt by realities facing our Church. Pray for them. As Father Maximos, the contemporary holy Athonite hieromonk sent to Cyprus (later becoming a Bishop and slandered in court by his own fellow hierarchs who were threatened by his piety) in 'Mountain of Silence' said to the lay people who came to him for discussion: " The Ecclesia survives despite the sins and shortcomings of both the lay and clergy".
Take heart!

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator and friend

I am not hurt by the realities we face, and I'm well aware of them. I'm also not a shrinking violet or a Pollyana.

I am hurt by generalizations and stereotyping no matter who does it and who it is targeted at (especially if based off things perceptions formed off reading things on the Internet). That's not honest discussion to me. You said a number of very negative things and specifically said "most Antiochians". I'm not and I wasn't looking for an apology, because this is obviously what you believe. All of this is no real surprise though as I rarely if ever read anything nice said about my church.

I worship amongst people in the church in question every week. They are not bad people and they don't favor the things or act the way you say they do. They bent over backwards to welcome me and my family in to Orthodoxy. I don't consider myself as different or better than them, or exceptional in any way.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

About seven years ago, there was a civil war of sorts in the GOA involving some GOA members against their new Archbishop. When people said that they were doing this or doing that, and that they were sinful and scandalous, I took no personal offense. I knew that they were the minority, but a very vocal one. They used the internet and any other way they could to further their cause.

The scandalous tactics of those particular Greek Orthodox against their Archbishop, unfortunately, worked. They had money and power behind them, and it was a very, very dark day in the history of the Greek Archdiocese in this country--having gone so far as to even have an article in Time Magazine called 'Ousting the Archbishop'.

Were anyone to tell me all this, I would not take offense. Why would I? Greek saints and holy persons and Greek Elders in Orthodoxy have said worse about the sins of members of my Church. The Church survives despite its members, clergy and laity, they often say!

Ofcourse you and the majority of other Antiochians are wonderful and exemplary Christians! However, I do know some (personally as well) that are vocal about how to achieve jurisdictional unity. They are very much like those GOA persons in that they think that they can get what they want by being forceful. They banter around a quote by a certain archbishop who was heard to have said "if the foreign patriarchs won't give autonomy, you have to take it" and that is exactly what they want the Greeks to do.

This is all I am saying. It is a discussion. It is not an attack on you, your friends, or your jurisdiction, God forbid!!!

I tend to forget that not every one is as objective about their own as I am, and for this, I beg your forgiveness. I prayed very hard for you today. You are a neophyte in holy Orthodoxy and I don't want to be the source of scandal for your soul. I thought that perhaps we could all discuss the pros and cons of the Antiochian approach to Orthodox jurisdictional unity, but I see that it is making some people touchy.

If it makes you feel any better, my jurisdiction has lots and lots of problems of its own, and I will be the first to admit it! If you would like, please feel free to bash us!

All I was trying to say is that it is scandalous to us to be told to foresake our Ecumenical Patriarch, and I just wanted to finally have the opportunity to express that. I still firmly stand behind the belief that, as our Ecumenical Patriarch has said, "the church in the U.S. is not mature enough for autonomy yet". We need Europe for its traditional teachings and Europe definitely needs us at this dangerous time in the survival of Christianity there. This is my opinion.

Again, I beg your forgiveness for my opinions. I obviously annoy you a great deal and that hurts me too, but that is why we pray in the Divine Liturgy..."for those who love us and those who hate us".

With love in Christ,
Alice

P.S. Maybe that is why many spiritual fathers would advise against writing on forums during Lent.

Since this is becoming a source of scandal for some here, I will contact Fr. Deacon Ed to see if he agrees that we call it quits.

Oh, it isn't the TOPIC that is scandalizing people, but the replies.

Gaudior, who thinks that the subject is an excellent one.

Dear Gaudior,

Generalizations are often wrong, but for them to exist they obviously have a modem of truth behind them.

I do not see Catholics get as touchy about topics pertaining to their shortcomings, problems and issues, as much as I do Orthodox.

We are not perfect because we are Orthodox.

Yes, there are Ukrainians that are friendly and Ukrainians that are not, yes, there are Greeks that are friendly and there are Greeks that are not...need I continue. If we cannot be objective, open and honest, then what are we gaining?

The way to achieve all Christ pleasing unity is for us to get to know each other, warts and all...and then to love each other as Christ has commanded us to. So, when there are pan Orthodox services, and everyone goes off into their own clique at the coffee afterwards, I will try to go to those from OCA and those from the Antiochian Church and any one else. Infact, when that service was hosted in my own parish, I was probably the ONLY one that broke the ice and went out of my way to greet and talk to the clerical delegation from St. Vlad's and to the sweet young Antiochian priest from the Bronx! THIS is what will build bridges, not touchiness, not unfriendliness, pride, or force. That is why I am here for the cause of East/West unity. I would hope that would be the reason that you and other Orthodox are also here.

I will also kindly ask that you try to be a bit more polite, calm and charitable in your posts, just as you would expect of posters if you moderated a forum. I have received a few private complaints. Thank you.

In Christ,
Alice

P.S. ALL: I have asked Fr. Deacon Ed for his agreement in closing down this topic. Out of respect for him as my co-moderator, I will not do it until I get an answer.
I ask all that there be no further posts. Any posts after mine will be deleted until Fr. Deacon Ed can respond to me. Thanks for your cooperation.

I am going to honor Alice's request that this topic be closed; not because the topic is not worthy of our discussion, but because this holy season of Great Lent is a time when our focus should be on metanoia and koinonia (conversion and community).

Perhaps after Bright Week we can again raise the issue of the unification of Orthodoxy in the United States without rancor, without hurt feelings, and without generalizations.

Until then, I ask that my Orthodox brothers and sisters spend this Sunday before Palm Sunday in prayer and reflection on the Great Mystery that is Pascha. Pascha speaks to us of resurrection, of new life, of the triumph over death.

But it also reminds us of the need to die to self that is such a part of conversion. Let us, then, die to self that as the Body of Christ we may reflect Him and not us.

In peace,

Fr. Deacon Edward,
Moderator/Administrator