www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy Liturgical Translations Differences Ukrainian Divine Liturgy and Revised Divine Liturgy

Thanks Fr Deacon. So English translations of the UGCC Sluzhebnik as well as Ukrainian ones also contain the Liturgies in full, but the Ruthenian RDL one not only doesn't but is in a controversial translation?

Just me, but speaking as an Orthodox, I find this odd to say the least. If you attended an ACROD parish one Sunday, an OCA the next and a UOC the third, you would note slightly different translations, but the Lituries of each would, for all intents and purposes, be the same. (Maybe a different third antiphon or the number of Alliluia repetitions or the number of petitions might differ - but those are little things.....)

DMD, I would be surprised if what you say is entirely accurate - at least based on what I have observed here in Britain, and from the reports of an Orthodox priest friend of mine in North America who has served as a supply priest for a number of jurisdictions (he himself is OCA). Indeed, the new 2nd edition of the Liturgy for the Greeks, put together by Fr Ephrem Lash, includes this comment:

'Although in current Greek parochial practice everything between the Gospel and the Cherubic hymn is normally omitted...'

Now, I found this incredible. And it represents just one sentence among other sentences of corrective intent.

I cringe when I think of the ways in which our Ukrainian sluzhebnik may have deviated from Orthodox usage, but this just confirmed to me that, in fact, probably all jurisdictions have additions and omissions that are less than ideal.

edited in order to emphasise the enormity of the comment!

The 1988 UGCC Synodal Liturgikon is essentially the Ukrainian and English translation of the "official" Rome Slavonic sluzhebnik of the 1950s, and contains all of the material to serve the Divine Liturgy in accordance with the Ordo published in Rome.

As pertains to your question regarding the RDL being a "controversial translation", you can review the posts on this forum for the last six to seven years and judge yourself and also read all of the comparisons between the RDL and its predecessor in the BCCA (give yourself lots of time, as there are many). Not having a dog in that fight, I'll pass in the interest of time.


That is definitely true. Read some of the criticisms of the Old Ritualists regarding the Nikonian reforms.

So in conclusion. If I wanted to pick up a copy of the Divine Liturgy for my own personal study, which included Chrysostom and Basil which would you get. Is the Antiochian Service Book any good. It is fairly inexpensive and has both Liturgies. Byzantine Daily Worship or The Divine Liturgy an Anthology for Worship, both costly. Any suggestions?. Which do you like to use?.

I recommend: Draft Study Texts of the Ruthenian Divine Liturgies (Chrysostom and Basil). It has plenty of footnotes, and you can print your own copies or contact me for a paper copy. I highly recommend them!

The Anthology [Ukrainian Greek Catholic] is an absolute masterpiece. We recommend it highly!

Unfortunately, this is exactly the type of thing that kills me...and Killed the DL for the Ruthenian BCC in America...I remember speaking with a several priests who were "in the know" while the RDL was being formulated...I saw it shortly after it came out...I had attended a funeral and had a chance to flip thru the actual book...I don't remember the specifics...but I brought up some of the issues with the priest who was part of the working committee...he would always refer to things like this...essentially since the Greeks do it or the Antiochians to that...it's OK for us to do it...so somebodys "mistranslation" or "revision" even if it's not widely adheared to is brushed off as its ok since someone else who is in the Orthodox Church says its ok...I envision some day, God willing, the RDL goes away...100 years later some scholars pick up a copy and say...see that's what we should be doing...that's how they did it...missing the history that goes along with it...

Well, I know one change in the Divine Liturgy is in the antiphon. Now instead of singing "Through the prayers of the Mother of God" it's "Through the prayers of Theotokos" so the wordings seemed to have changed in that sentence. Although both do mean the same thing, Theotokos does sound more in line with Eastern tradition through the translation. Mother of God is more Western than anything else.

Actually, the Greek text of the Liturgy uses the terms Theotokos and Mother of God together, sometimes within the same hymn, so it is important to differentiate when each is used in order to have an accurate translation. And Theotokos (or Bogorodice) is an example of a word best left untranslated, since all English equivalents are either awkward or inaccurate.

I wish people here would think this way.

Does anyone know where the Anthology can be purchased? Thank you.

The ones in our pews are in a brand new, never been used condition

On a serious note, you can order them here: http://www.sheptytskyinstitute.ca/?page_id=60

Sorry, but what do you mean by that, ConstantineTG?

Sorry, by "here" I do not mean ByzCath.

People in parishes do not want to use the Anthology.