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JBenedict #385619 08/30/12 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by JBenedict
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Michael is correct, that it is a holdover from the Latins who instituted the practice of simultaneous Masses when Canon Law forbade concelebration. The ideal was that the Masses not only be simultaneous, but be synchronized, both so as to minimize distraction and to emphasize that the Mass was 'one', rather than separate and distinct celebrations. The celebrant at the main altar would ordinarily be the only one heard aloud; the other presbyters would pray or chant in low voices.

Typical Roman practice regarding simultaneous Masses (e.g. in Monasteries) was that they were all low Masses and not synchronised. In monasteries or Churches with many priests, the priests would celebrate Low Masses early in the morning and the community High Mass (i.e. with singing) would be celebrated later in the day after the Third or the Sixth hour depending on the season. Typically, only the celebrant (or in a parish Church perhaps a few lay people) would communicate at the High Mass, most of the participants (including the priests who were now ministers at or participating in choir at the High Mass) would have communicated at the the early morning Masses so that only the Hebdomadary (the officiant for the week) would have to prolong his fast until the High Mass later in the day.

JBenedict is correct in noting that simultaneous Mass celebrations among the Latins were historically intended to accommodate the requirement of daily celebration by each priest in monasteries or other locales in which there were multiple clerics in residence and that these were not intended to be synchronized. I should have made reference to that and been clearer in indicating that the simultaneous aspect was an inherited latinization.

Whether synchronization was likewise inherited or homegrown is less clear, but what I've read suggests that it only came about in the 20th century, about the same time that it got started among the Latins; so, the possibility exists.

I'd certainly agree with my brother in his closing observation regarding synchronization ...

Quote
To me, anyways, this is clearly craziness and the practice was rightfully supressed.

A friend who has seen these in real life observed that, while fascinating to see, it was also extraordinarily distracting and mind-boggling, much more so, on both counts, than mere concelebration.

Many years,

Neil



"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Check this link.

journals.sub.uni-hamburg.de/aethiopica/article/download/235/232



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Here is one of the QA to catholica bava of malankara orthodox church (addressed here as thirumeni) and the answer. He has clearly answered side altar was copied from catholic practice which catholics discontinued later.

Quote
Question:

Dearly Beloved Thirumeni.
Hope you are keeping fine.Thirumeni I have certain doubts which are mostly common to all.
Why is the Gagultha placed on 25th day of the lent & why it is placed in the middle of the church & why on the day
of Sunday we change the the color from Red TO Black..? What does the Color Black signifies .? why on the day of
Easter the Gagultha is placed inside the Madbaha on the left side of the alter. Why the alter boys are advised to
wear light colour dress. Why is 12 candle lighted on thronosu & 'IF' it signifies 12 disciples & why on day of easter
we light all 12.? why not 11.....? Why do we conduct munumel Qurbana. ? what does it signifies? Why everything
3.? blessing of 3 appam & wine ? why 3 censer ? & all ?
Your Loving Child In Christ
Ben John Varghese

Reply:

Dear Ben
We place the cross in the middle of the Church on the day of mid lent. You may remember that on the way of
Israelites to Canaan they were bit by fiery serpent and God asked Moses to make a bronze serpent and set it up on
a pole in the middle of the tent (Num. 21). This became a symbol of salvation and Jesus quoted this and said that
He had to be lifted up like Moses did (John 3:14). Jesus was lifted up on Golgotha for the salvation of the whole
creation. Cross symbolizes our Lord for us. So as a symbol of our salvation we set up the cross on a pedestal and
set it up in the middle of the Church which is tent of meeting of modern time. Since Moses lifted the serpent in the
centre of the tent we find the centre of the lent days also which is the 25th day.
Black colour in several cultures like in western culture signifies mourning. In the Syrian culture black signifies
penitence. We who follow Syrian tradition in our liturgical life adapted it and use black coloured dress for priests and
bishops. The Golgotha is placed on Easter day on the northern side of the sanctuary. The altar signifies the throne
of God and Jesus is facing us from the right hand side of God.
I do not know who advised them to wear light coloured dress. They are supposed to wear white coloured dress both
as the official dress and also as their regular dress when they enter the altar. May some people advised them to
wear light colour if there is no white colour dress. May be the say that to avoid any deep coloured dress as it will not
look good with the white coloured outer gown they wear during service.
There is no rule that says there should be 12 candles on the altar. It should be equal in number on either side. It can
be one each on either side, two each or three each. There should not be too many to make the altar crowded. Of
course there are people who explain that 12 signifies the number of disciples. That is not a correct interpretation.
Most of the time side altars will have only a couple of them. All candles should be lighted for every H. Qurbana.
Moonnimmel H. Qurban is not part of our tradition. Some time back in history the Catholic Church had this practice
and our association with them made us follow that. The Catholic Church later discontinued this practice. But for
unknown reason we continued. Our practise is to have more than one priest/ bishops serving one altar at the same
time which is called con-celebration. Two years back the H. Episcopal Synod of our Church decided to discourage
moonninmel or tri-mass and encourage con-celebration. But there are several Churches that already have three and
some times five altars and they insist to have H. Qurbana on them on feast or perunnal days. This is a clear
example of our slavishness to other people.
Regards and prayers
Thirumeni

http://www.malankaraorthodox.tv/orthodoxy/Gagultha.pdf

No wonder malankara catholic does not practice tri-mass, but orthodox/jacobite does still.

Last edited by PPJ; 09/26/12 04:48 AM.
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Another one-
Quote
Dear thirumeni
There have been an increase in conducting muunninmel Qurbana (trimass?) in our churches. I have
learned that such practices have no Orthodox base and do not comply with the Orthodox Christian
practices. However, I see a lot of our own bishops conducting munninmel, anchinmel (and 101?)
Qurbana. Our achen (Rev. Fr. Dr. George Koshy) has a written an article about the wrong practice (in
both factions of the church). A few years ago, our Mor Athanasios thirumeni (Muvattupuzha) declined
to conduct trimass (in White Plains church) even though the parishioners compelled. I respect him for
taking a strong stand and parishioners had to obey him. What is thirumeni's opinion about muunninmel
Qurbana. If you agree with Fr. Dr. George Koshy what can you do to completely stop this practice in
our Churches?

Thank you
Aby Paul
Dear Aby
Yes you are right there is no theological or practical validity for the practice of the so called
'moonninmel Qurbana'. The Catholic Church quite some time back used to do it, but later discontinued.
We however, following them, started doing it and continues till today for no valid reason.
I have not seen the article of George Koshy Achen on this matter though Achen told me about it some
time back. Now the practice had taken even worse forms to have, as you said, 'anchinmel' and
'noottonninmel' Qurbanas.
The Holy Episcopal Synod of Malankara Orthodox Church has, two years back, decided to discourage
this practice and encourage con-celebration which has been the practice in Syriac traditon. However,
sicne moonninmel is deep rooted in our culture it is not easy to completely ovoid or eliminate the
practice all together in a day or two. Nevertheless it is a fact that we need to slowly reduce this
unhealthy practice.

Regards and prayers
Thirumeni

Last edited by PPJ; 09/26/12 05:12 AM.
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