www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Caught between East and West

Hi guys, I've recently joined the forum so greetings and peace to you all!

I'm looking for some advice. I originally posted on the CAF Eastern Catholicism board, I received some good answers but one poster suggested I should post it on here. Apologies for the lengthy post.

Basically I find myself caught between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I was born a raised Roman Catholic but ever since my teenage years I have been drawn to Orthodoxy. For the last 4-5 years I have read so much Orthodox history and theology. I have attended services and met with Orthodox priests. I also studied Russian and East European history at university, I studied in Russia for a while and encountered Orthodoxy further there, which was amazing. For a while I was convinced it was only a matter of time before I converted. However, I would constantly yo-yo between Orthodoxy and the Catholicism of my upbringing, I could never quite commit, there was always something holding me back. To cut a long story short, over the past 6 month to a year I have become almost convinced that the Catholic Church is actually Christ's Church (I mean absolutely no disrespect to any Orthodox reading this at all, I love the Orthodox Church).

But this leaves me with a real problem, namely how to view the Orthodox Church? There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there is true holiness within the Orthodox Church. When you read the lives of Orthodox saints, when you read about Mount Athos and the miracles that happen within Orthodoxy, it makes me wonder, if the Catholic Church is the true faith then where does Orthodoxy fit in? I have become very 'Eastern' in my Christianity. I just can't turn it off. I love so many Orthodox saints, when I venerate them now I feel guilty because I am leaning towards Catholicism and they, while alive, were Orthodox.

I guess I have always viewed things in a very black and white manner- I would be either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Perhaps, forgive me for this, I have been a little dismissive of Eastern Catholicism. But maybe thats the answer. Yet I cant help but wonder why God has given me so many wonderful experiences with Orthodoxy if I am to remain Catholic. The nearest EC church is over an hour away and I would find it expensive and difficult to travel there every week, but I have 3 Orthodox churches in my city, one only 10 minutes away. Maybe I can attend RC Mass and Divine Liturgy, but I dont know how the Orthodox priests will feel about that. I just dont know and I'm really confused.

I guess I'm hoping some of you guys may be able to offer some insights or advice?

Peace

Chris

Let me propose that the Orthodox Church is the Church, as is the Roman Catholic Church.

Perhaps you might picture it this way:

If Christ's Body on earth were a castle of concentric walls, the Catholic and Orthodox Church would both reside at the centre - in the keep. The keep has a curtain drawn through it, separating one side from the other; but just a curtain is permeable in real terms, it is in this analogy as well. Some on both sides may wish to exaggerate the separation, and some may even seek to bolster it with stone, but the keep is inhabited by both just the same.

The fact is, unlike the Protestant communities that chose to go their own way in the sixteenth century, there was no substantial issue behind the schism between East and West. [Hence Pope Benedict's insistence that nothing should be required of the East in ecumenical dialogue that was not articulated in the first millennium.]

Now, I know that there may be some who wish to take me to task for saying so, but even something like the filioque clause has been recognised as being less problematic than originally argued.

In any case, I would not think in terms of 'Christ's Church' as if one or the other was not Christ's Church. The two were once one, and as one was founded by Christ's apostles. That can be taken away from neither.

It seems to me that being in communion with Rome is ideal, which is what makes me an Eastern Catholic; but I could hardly tolerate any suggestion that those not in communion in Rome, yet still of the Apostolic Faith were anything other than members of the Church.

I would suggest that if you're going to go off on a search for truth, you'll need to leave behind practical considerations like the distance between your home and this or that parish, or how a priest will feel about your journey.

As for venerating Saints, let your conscience rest. You're free to privately venerate anybody dead. Fill your boots.

As for where Orthodoxy fits in, you're only faced with a choice because of the unique circumstances of modern life. Don't think it to death. You've got to realize that doctrine and disputes and all that play almost no real role of any substance in the lives of ordinary Christians. If you were born here, you did this; and if there, that. People have followed their clergy in and out of schisms and all just trying to accept the grace of the sacraments and live out their lives, peaceful and unashamed and all that.

Anyway, I'd say it doesn't "fit in". There were never supposed to be two competing Christianities. You're only caught in the middle because man, following his pattern, screwed it up. So, there's an excellent chance you're not going to find peace, as such.

I would say to you that Slavophile is spot on about what the Church is, but I think that the advantage for the truest Church would be the Orthodox Catholic Church not Roman. Why, what about Peter you say? Well who he is talking about in his confession (Christ being the Son of G*d and the Messiah) is the foundation of Church, That is the Son of G*d is the foundation of the Church. Not Peter.

Augustine theology, which is proto-Scholastic is in contrast to Eastern Patristic understanding on many issues. The overwhelming majority of ECF would disagree with Augustine on these issues.

Also the whole issue surrounding the Papal Monarchy is a perverted development totally foreign to the east. Read up on Charlemagne, how and why the Cardinal College was invented, the Forged Canons on Papal Monarchy etc... It seems to me good pious Catholics kept the faith as Orthodox as they could despite these lunatics and their lust for earthly power.

http://vivificat1.blogspot.com/2008/08/why-i-left-eastern-orthodox-church.html

"... Also, the firm conviction that many theologians and apologists hold about Orthodoxy's self-contained sufficiency as the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
unfairly forced me to consider the Latin tradition as necessarily incomplete, heretical, faulty, invalid and/or arrogant in whole or in part, when in fact it is merely different.

For example, I've seen Orthodox comparisons "out there" between St. Seraphim of Sarov and St. Francis of Assisi in which the latter one is depicted most unfavorably. No effort was made to understand Francis' love for the Lord whereas for me the central question is: was Francis holy? As an Orthodox I had to answer "yes." Was St. Seraphim holy? Absolutely. Then, I conclude, God desires their differences. Is not a matter of either/or but of both/and. And if this is the case with two saints, why not between the churches? This question can be asked freely in Rome, but not in Orthodoxy without denying the Orthodox sense of identity, starting with my own.

Therefore, the answer to this question acted as a catalyst for me to leave (Orthodox church)."

Let me reiterate a point that appears to be getting lost a lot of late, as evidenced by a surge of posts to various threads, many (but not all) by well-intended Latin Catholics, that seem to be centered on a mistaken belief that this is a decidedly Catholic forum, that Orthodox are mere guests here, and that the Orthodox should understand themselves as being runners-up in the quest to be both 'c'atholic and 'o'rthodox.

Despite the styling of this site as 'Byzantine' and 'ByzCath', this is, in fact, an Eastern - and Oriental - Christian forum, which welcomes all Eastern and Oriental Christians, and other Christians, to participation, regardless of which primatial hierarch is commemorated in the dyptichs of the temple they attend.

Our Orthodox members are no more or less 'guests' here than are our Eastern or Latin Catholic members, nor our resident Lutheran pastor, nor anyone else. We are ALL guests here - John, our Administrator, being the sole individual who can rightfully disclaim that title.

We are, and fully expect to remain, a community of persons with an interest in and a love for the spirituality, the praxis, and the theology of the East. We learn from one another, we educate one another, we celebrate the joys of one another, we mourn with one another, we pray for one another.

We also dialogue and discuss with one another and we not infrequently debate one another, in a spirit of both courtesy and respect, such as is the expected standard for civil discourse.

We also, above all else, expect respect for one another and for the faith in which each of us worships and the Church to which each of us is committed. There is no place nor any tolerance for polemics or for triumphalism.

There is an expectation and an acceptance of the fact that differences exist between and among us. Elsewise, we could and would be able to experience the joy of communing from the same cup, as once our ancestors did - a blessing denied to us at this time in history.

Those who come here 'caught between East and West' or 'caught between Catholicism and Orthodoxy' walk an unenviable line. It is unrealistic to believe that their dilemma will be solved by any other than God - certainly not by anonymous postings on an internet venue. So, those caught might better pray for help from above in resolution of their spiritual crisis and we might better do the same, both for them and ourselves.

Many years,

Neil

Neil:

I think your comments are well said and should be the attitude of this forum. I would hope the forum continues to provide an opportunity for Latin Catholics, Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox alike with an opportunity to share their thoughts and their questions. That also impies to inquiring Protestants.

Although untimately one's decision regarding a choice of faith lies between the individual and God, it is helpful (but sometimes detrimental, as well depending on the inflection of the post) to hear others opinions, along with their struggles in making a similar decision. I think when we are caught in an indecisive situation with anything, we seek out others who have experienced much the same thing. Hearing how they have dealt with it can give the person a broader base to draw from.

The OP seems to have a good insight from both paths of worship, having been involved with both the EO and RC churches. His impressions seem to be a a balanced appreciation of both faiths.

I'll be praying for you, my friend. Right now, I have a weekend schedule, for my job. It's impossible for me to go to a divine liturgy, whether Russian Orthodox, or Ruthenian Catholic, because of this. I try compensating by accessing divine liturgy through WEDO 810 streaming of divine liturgy. They also have a good line up of things, on their website.

I'd say this: Go where you feel closer to God, be it Roman Catholic, or Orthodoxy. I'd travel an hour, each Sunday, one way to the Byzantine Church (granted I take the bus to get there), for a multitude of reasons. One of which is, I think God called me to attend it; and this is where I feel I've truly given myself in worship; and I'm amid others who do the same.

"Maybe I can attend RC Mass and Divine Liturgy, but I dont know how the Orthodox priests will feel about that. I just dont know and I'm really confused."

Neophytos:

The moderator's admonition causes me to fear to express my sentiments derived from my own journey along a similar dilemma and so I'll be silent on the matter except to reinforce a practical idea that you, yourself, have already suggested, namely, going to the Catholic Mass and to the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

I'm a Roman Catholic who has found a need to exchange my "native" Roman Catholic liturgical praxis for that of the Eastern Church. In my case, I am fortunate to have 5 or 6 Ukrainian Greek Catholic churches nearby and so I can attend the Byzantine liturgy every Sunday as my liturgical celebration of obligation.

But I don't always.

Sometimes I decide to fulfil my Sunday obligation as a Catholic by means of a vigil Mass on Saturday evening so that on Sunday I am free to attend the Divine Liturgy at any of the several Orthodox churches nearby. And oftentimes I avail myself of Orthodox services on weeknights (Vespers, for example).

I can tell you that, in almost every case, I have met the clergy at these Orthodox churches and not one of them has ever expressed any displeasure with the fact that I am a Roman Catholic intruding on their territory. On the contrary, they have all been very, very welcoming.

The Orthodox laity I have encountered have also been delighted to welcome me, to the point where on several occasions I have not been permitted the opportunity to decline their invitations to join them at social gatherings after the liturgy. In fact the last time I visited an Orthodox church for a liturgy, I was not invited to join them for their coffee hour, I was physically abducted into the parish hall!

So don't worry that they might react negatively to your presence. I can't imagine that my own experiences have been unique. And just because you have to attend a Catholic liturgy each Sunday, doesn't mean that you cannot, therefore, also attend services at Orthodox churches.

I am irreparably struck by an Orthodox saying that I first encountered here on this forum. It quickly became for me the way I make sense of the authenticity of Christianity in all the legitimate apostolic Churches, whether in the "West", the "East", or the "Orient", despite their "separation" from one another. The saying is: "We know precisely where the Church is, however we do not know precisely where it is not."

That's an idea that I can fully embrace and, personally, I don't require much more of an explanation beyond that. Needless to say, you have to respect the rules of the Church you belong to, and of the Churches whose temples you visit...but do you need to make sense of the East-West schism, and figure it all out all by yourself? No, of course not. How could you?

If you feel that you must remain a Catholic subject to the Pope (as I do, and as you seem to), then be a Catholic subject to the Pope. Bear in mind, however, that "Catholic" doesn't have to mean "Roman Catholic". Everything that you love about Orthodoxy you can find in the Catholic Church of the East. Orthodoxy and Catholicism are not, therefore, necessarily at odds with one another. So if you haven't got an Eastern Catholic church nearby, but you do have Orthodox churches nearby, then fulfil your obligation at a Catholic Mass but supplement your obligation with the Orthodox worship services that are available to you. And don't worry that anyone will be miffed by it. They won't.

Is there something of an indulgent sense about all of this that you would essentially be having your cake and eating it too? Perhaps...on the one hand. On the other hand...so what? If somebody's going to have a stroke about it, it's their issue. Not yours. You can be Western in law and Eastern at heart and in practice; there's absolutely nothing to stop you...as I have discovered to my delight.

I like your response, very much, RI. I think, after spending much time with the Byzantine tradition (and I'll be spending 95% of my time, given my situation), I've learned a different way to approach prayer in the Latin rite devotions, and services. I may cover this more widely, later.

You should know that in the Vatican Directory titled, Ad Totum Eccesiam, 14 May, 1967, Chapter IV,Section C, 1,47 it makes it quite clear that Catholics, East and West, fulfill their "Sunday Obligation" when they attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. I would suggest you read this enlightening document, especially part 1 of Section C.

I find it unfortunate that these documents do not make it down to the faithful,even in a synthesized form. 1967 was 45 years ago! Lord, have mercy.

Utroque, the 1993 "Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms On Ecumenism" [vatican.va] revokes this privilege:(See John Beal, et al., New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law [books.google.com], pg. 1445 who argue that it may have actually been revoked earlier for Latin Catholics with the publication of the 1983 Code.)

So 19, or 29, years ago the privilege was revoked, so it's not that surprising that the faitful follow the current rule and not the 1967 one.

Since Divine Liturgy is the celebration of the Eucharist and not a service, I do not look upon the above quoted paragraph in the 1993 Directory as a revocation of what you call a privilege at all. As far as I am concerned, the paragraph in the 1967 Directory stands, and I would challenge any Canon lawyer about that. Call me a liberal Traditionalist.

Though any Latin Rite Catholic can fulfill there Sunday obligation at an Orthodox Divine liturgy if they are in a Orthodox country and there isn't a Catholic church close to where they are.

No they cannot. If there is no Catholic Church within reasonable distance, their obligation is dispensed.