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Dear Anhelyna,

A well-known Archimandrite (a priest-monk of the highest non-episcopal rank) once advised his married spiritual child who was a friend of mine:

"My son, a beer is a lenten drink. Three beers are not a lenten drink."

You can imagine how relieved I was having heard silent approval for my two-beer daily ration.

But seriously, here are strict rules as one may find in a devout monastic or parish setting:

1. No meat or dairy all of Lent and Holy Week.

2. Fish, wine, and oil on Annunciation and Entry into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday).

3. Wine and oil permitted on Saturdays and Sundays.

4. No eating Monday through Friday mornings [but especially Wednesday and Friday] until approximately 3:00 PM, but water, juices, coffee, teas permitted (and necessary!). [The hour is not so critical as is the idea of keeping and breaking a fast.]

5. Shellfish (bloodless seafood but without a face) are usually considered "fair game." Some slackers like me even will include mollusks or crustaceons on weekends (also bloodless seafood, but they have faces).

6. No eating or drinking from midnight until the time of communion (this is always in effect).

7. The olive oil issue is up for discussion. I gave my understanding previously. If olive oil is prohibited in and of itself, then why are olives permitted?

This model has been much abused in North America. Even bishops are sometimes teaching to the contrary. Our laxity in fasting is perhaps why we can't seem to do all of those other more important and more difficult things: bridling the tongue, forgiving our brother, loving our enemies.

May God help us! I wish you a joyous fast!

In Christ,
Andrew.

Dear Andrew,

What about eggs? Are they permitted in a Byzantine fast? Here in our monastery - Roman Catholic Benedictine - we get them alot during Lent. However, when I was growing up my mother who was Ruthenian rite until she married my Polish father would not serve eggs during Lent. I have fond memories of racing home after the Easter vigil to eat that first pysanky , Of course all our friends thought we were nuts since they had been eating egg salad all Lent .

PAX

P.S. I kinda feel a bit guilty knowing that we Latins will be eating our traditional pancakes and doughnuts tomorrow on Fat Tuesday while our Eastern brethren have already started the fast

A good salad is fresh spinach ,sliced strawberries and toasted sesame seeds topped with a sweetened vinegarette.

A good bean soup is tiny pastina with white kidney beans, chopped tomatoes,yellow squash and chopped fresh spinach. If your not doing a "Strict Fast" top it with freshly grated romano or parma cheese.
Oh another one I forgot is a thin pasta (like angel hair) with green onions ,some oriental veggies and a peanut butter/ soy sauce type of sauce.

Nicky's Baba

Eggs are included in "dairy" on the NO List

Thanks for the info., Brian. I always suspected that they were not "fast food" in the East since my Mom made such a big deal out of Easter eggs.

On a side note, I never understood why eggs are considered dairy - they don't come from a cow !

PAX

Pax - Benedictine!

Eggs et al. are considered meat by-products and this is why they are forbidden during the Great Fast.

Fish is also forbidden since it has a spine and is therefore considered meat - shell-fish are permitted.

I understand that in some places in the South and in Detroit (?) muskrat dishes are allowed on Fridays and during Lent (officially approved by the Latin Church) since there are those who believe muskrat meat is like fish since it is always swimming in water . . .

When the Portuguese came into India, the ancient St Thomas Christians there were horrified when they saw the Portuguese eat fish on fast-days!

But what ARE the fasting guidelines for Latin Catholics these years?

Do Latin Catholics still fast? Can they avoid fasting by throwing some coins into a poor box?

Is it a sin for Latin Catholics not to fast?

Do Latin Catholics see "Fast" only as something that is done in a hurry, whatever it is . . .

Alex

I once asked a knowlegable 'someone' this exact question, and the answer I was given was, because olive oil was kept in skins. But I have not be able to verify this.

The other answer, was the monks horror for savory food. Not using oil means that food is cooked at a lower temperature (boiled or steamed), and does not taste the same as when fried in oil. You also cannot make many 'sauces'. So it was an asceticism of the palate. A more extreme form of this asceticism is to eat no cooked food (this was done by some of the great ascetics).

Elias



Elias

Bless me a sinner, Father Elias,

Well, both your sources are wrong (Are you still disappointed in me? ).

Olive Oil is expressly forbidden during the Great Fast because it is a symbol of Divine joy and the Divine anointing of gladness.

Something similar happens when the "Kutya" that is served at funerals does not have poppy-seeds to symbolize sadness, unlike at the Nativity Season.

The "Mak" or poppy-seeds are specially blessed on August 1st (the Administrator's birthday - I'm trying to make up with everybody today).

Wine is also forbidden as a symbol of gladness.

Although, Father, you have had occasion to drink the "whine of astonishment" where I am concerned . . .

And I do love Carmel wines!

Alex

Dear Alex,

The current guidelines in the Roman Church are: Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are days of abstinence from meat and also days of fast, that is, limited to a single full meal and two smaller meals. The law of abstinence binds all Roman Catholics 14 years and older, the law fast binds all Catholics from their 18th birthday until their 59th birthday.

The other Fridays of the season of Lent are days of abstinence from meat.

Our bishops have tried to emphasize that this is the minimum that the Church asks of us during Lent and we are certainly encouraged to do more. For example, at our Cathedral there will be several interesting lectures offered over the Lenten season and folks are encouraged to donate the money they would have spent for lunch to a hunger program. Other parishes encourage their people to do the same or something similar.

Some parishes have established sister relationships with parishes in Haiti or Latin America and will use their Lenten alms to provide food, clean water, etc. to those parishes.

It's very frustrating that some Roman Catholics have not grown beyond the legalisms that they erroneously read into these guidelines, so, for example, while avoiding meat on Fridays they have no hesitation going to town on lobster and other seafoods. That's definitely killing the spirit with the letter of the law.

All the fasting requirements should, ideally, unite us in solidarity with our Lord and one another and help us to step back and remember what it is we are engaging on the spiritual journey of Lent.

Khrystyna

Originally posted by Andrew J. Rubis:

"My son, a beer is a lenten drink. Three beers are not a lenten drink."......
2. Fish, wine, and oil on Annunciation and Entry into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday).

3. Wine and oil permitted on Saturdays and Sundays.
___________________________________________

I've been thinking about this << Shock Horror>>

Beer is permitted and not wine [ except on "special" occasions.

I was trying to understand why - it did not seem logical.

Then I suddenly remembered - after wine has fermented it has to be cleared so that the sediment settles to the bottom before bottling. To assist in this "finings" are added. Now if my memory serves me these are made from albumen . So could this be the reason for Wine being forbidden ?

As to Alex's query about Fasting in the RC Church - well Ash Wednesday [ tomorrow] and Good Friday are both days of Fasting and Abstinence and alcohol and meat are forbidden. You are supposed to have 1 meal only but 2 small snacks are permitted. In some respects the Rules for who may fast are much easier basically only the young, those with a medical condition such as Diabetes,the sick and the elderly [ regarded as 60 yrs old] are exempt from fasting together with pregnant women and Nursing Mothers.

During the year Fridays are also supposed to be days of fasting but this is often conveniently forgotten .

Those who don't/can't fast should give up something else instead - TV, Magazines ,the Internet , this Forum [ not lokking at anyone in particular here - it should apply to me ]

And yes Alex - if you don't fast and should do this is something that must be Confessed.

Anhelyna

Dear Khrystyna,

You open up a really interesting set of points in this respect!

(You aren't mat at me for something or other, are you? ).

What is particularly interesting is how the Church's approach to fasting and other laws affects its practice.

IF we are used to doing only what the Church legislates i.e. Sunday Mass obligation, Daily Office obligation, fasting obligations etc.

(I have even heard "marital duties" referred to as an "obligation!" It takes all the fun out of it!!)

As I was saying, ahem, IF we only act according to Church legislation, then I think we are in trouble.

The symbolic penance we get in Confession is just a beginning of our showing the fruits of repentance which should punctuate our entire lives.

Orthodox theologian, Fr. Alexander Schemann (+memory eternal!)said that if fasting is something that God requires, THEN the Church could dispense with it entirely.

But since it is something that WE require, then the doctor (the Church) has no right to dispense with needed medicine for the good of the patients (us).

I used to argue (although that is really not in my nature ) with RC's about extending the Psalter readings to a month rather than the traditional week.

(I used to get Benedictines mad since I told them they were betraying Benedict's Rule and legacy - can you imagine how immature I was - but some immaturity is good for you, I think . . .).

There is no reason why we (Benedictines included) cannot read the Psalter through in one week, irrespective of what the "new rules" are.

Or to observe fasts, abstinences, vigils etc.

Don't you think?

Alex

CIX

In my family, we often did not have meat on Fridays throughout the year, even though my mom was no longer an RC (after marrying into my father's denomination). Tuna fish was often on the menu ... but never tuna fish salad (don't know why). We always ate (drained) tuna with cider vinegar and onions on it. Most folks turn up their nose, but try it. Add some salt and pepper plus celery seed if you have it. You talk about "fast food." We also had our share of stewed tomatoes and macaroni and cheese casserole.

QUESTIONS: In the Passaic Eparchy, observance of the fasting regulations is "mandatory" for receiving Holy Communion during the Great Fast. Is there a similar condition for the Roman Church faithful in America? Also, I was told that abstinence (from meat) or a penitential act on the non-Lent Fridays of the year in the Roman Church is only observed in the U.S. Canada and most European countries no longer have the Friday day of penance. Urban legend?

Regarding wine vs. beer, it's simply an issue of celebration. As one of Albanian origin (and thus a steady but moderate drinker in the Mediterranean tradition), I can affirm that wine is celebratory and lifts one's spirits and can even lead to dancing!!!! "Wine to gladden the heart of man, and oil to make his face shine." Psalm 104.

But beer just slows one down and fills one up. (Remember the "less calories" vs. "less filling" advertisements for lite beers.) It also has far less alcohol.

Or as the famous Tom T. Hall sang:

"I like beer! It makes me a jolly good fellow. It helps me unwind and sometimes it makes me feel mellow."

Back to the olive oil, I can accept Alex's argument that it is special in the sense of annointing & gladness. I'm not a stalwart in my position. I just haven't heard it expostulated well. I actually believe that Father Elias explained it best above, in reference to monastic predispositions. I'm sure that the excellent water here in the God-protected Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has endowed him with above average acuity.

In Christ,
Andrew.

Dear Reader Andrew,

"can lead to dancing"

I understand this is why Baptists are against sex!

Olive oil and wine truly do savour food and this is doubtless why it makes those who use them - glad they did.

I'm not trying to get into a context with the Venerable Father Elias on this

I'm just repeating, like a parrot, what I've read and what I accept.

Like the explanation of the Old Testament Trinity icon . . .

(Alex, stop that! Stop that - you promised to be good for Lent! ).

Alex

Dear Alex,

Since you have promised to be good and I haven't, I imagine that I'll have a distinct advantage for the next several weeks .

Was that you or the parrot that said "Alex, stop that. Stop that-"

May God grant a blessed lent to you and your loved ones!

In Christ,
Andrew.