www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Saints on both sides

There are undoubtedly, I strongly believe, as do most of you, saints on both sides, west latin roman and eastern grek and slavic orthodox, all the time, before and after the so called 1054 Schisma.
What do saints testify, without words and scientific theology, on the unity of church?

I strongly believe Padre Pio to be a saint as I do the same for Pater Paisios of Athos, Nikolai Velimirovich, Siluan of Athos and so many others.

I like Sveti Sava ... but I don't think the western Latin Rite would like it.

I need more saints in my repertoire.

Saint Barbara - Oriential Catholics (Coptics) ???

Saint Mary of Egypt ???

On the other hand, I don't think the Eastern Rite would like St. John Bosco, since he is an Italian saint, and was definitely Latin Rite. Although I'm sure John Bosco was named after one of the ancient St. Johns from Biblical times, now those would be recognized on both sides, especially St. John the Baptist and St. John the Evangelist. St. John Chrysostom is mainly Eastern Rite, but I think he has some influence on the Latin Rite, not sure to what degree.

Couple of questions.

Why do you refer to "sides," as if holiness took "sides." I think of the teaching of St. John of the Ladder who taught that there were many "ladders" to Heaven.

Why do we think that the two "sides" of Latin and Byzantine are all there are? What of men and women who achieved great degrees of holiness in the Syriac/Oriental Orthdoox tradition or the Church of the East that lived outside the boundaries of the Roman/Byzantine Empire?

Then there is the question of God Himself. A saint is recognized as being one who participates in the holiness of God becasue it is recognized that the Holy Spirit has indwelt in him/her. If so, is the Holy Trinity divided by our concept of "sides"? (I think not.)

Bob

+John Chrysostom has had a strong yet quiet influence on more recent liturgical development of Lutheran liturgies and a more subtle (but unfortunately waning or forgotten influence) on 20th century liturgies of the Reformed.

In the Lutheran rite, the five fold Kyrie--which takes those petitions directly from the DL of +John--was introduced in 1958. At the same time, the first true Eucharistic Prayer appeared in Lutheran hymnals. While Lutheran scholars claim that it originated with the Church of Sweden it is actually word for word from the Ukrainian Lutheran Divine Liturgy, and that is a conflation of the prayer of the DL of +John.

The full litany from the Divine Liturgy was incorporated into the 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship (LBW), the wording and sequence of the petitions almost identical except that added a petition "For the faithful departed who are at rest" just before the "help us, save us..." petition. Curiously, this addition was matched with the subtraction of naming the Theotokos in the final petition commending our whole life to Christ.

Many litanies of the 1941 Hymnal of the Evangelical and Reformed (now absorbed within the United Church of Christ) follow the pattern of the Litany of Fervent Supplication. And the prayer "Almighty God, who has given us grace at this time with one accord..." is a favorite even to this day in UCC congregations which come from the E & R antecedant. The prayer is simply titled "A prayer of St. Chrysostom"; and,in those congregations, it is used nearly every Sunday.

St. John Chrysostom is mainly Eastern Rite, but I think he has some influence on the Latin Rite, not sure to what degree.

My Latin rite parish has a massive painting of St. John Chrysostom above the pulpit.

I've rarely seen so many Latin rite priests and religious (in habits and cassocks) in an Orthodox Church as when the relic of the Head of St. John Chrysostom arrived at the ROCOR Cathedral in NYC in February of 2010.

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/the-vatican/detail/articolo/benedetto-xvi-benedict-xvi-benedicto-xvi-18539/

Outside of the Catholic Church (of Latin and Eastern Rites), I have a great appreciation for Elder Porphyrios.

"Why should we chase the darkness? We should just switch on the light and darkness will leave on its own. We will allow Christ to dwell throughout our soul and the demons will flee."

Elder Porphyrios

Even if certain Saints - Latin Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox - had some things to say in defence of their particular Churches' theology which could be at variance with what we or others consider to be truly "orthodox," the fact that their holy lives have inspired people to venerate them says something very powerful about the ecumenical witness of sanctity that cuts across all lines of division.

Recently, the Czech Orthodox Church has determined to glorify as Orthodox Saints . . . John Hus and Jerome of Prague. It has even printed canonization icons of them AND a liturgical service in their honour.

Alex

Please excuse the very off-topic

Alex - nice to see you back

May God bless my Lady!

Alex

Well said!

Bob and Alex,

The observations by each of you reflect the kind of prayerful and insightful thinking that will, someday, blessedly soon one prays, bring all to union - so that there are no 'sides' to even be considered. Thank you.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Brother Neil,

Indeed! The problem is how the Churches can be led to liturgically honour those very same Saints.

Sometimes Saints from other Churches just "creep into" calendars due to their popularity. When the Monastery of Pochayiv in western Ukraine went into the hands of the Basilians, the shrine of St Job of Pochayiv (glorified in 1654 by the Orthodox Metropolitan Dionysiy Balaban) was shut up. People continued to come to the closed down shrine to pray and venerate St Job - which then caused the Basilians to petition Rome to formally canonize St Job as a ... Catholic saint.

As the Ukrainian Orthodox Metropolitan Ilarion Ohienko once wrote, "Only in the unfortunate land of Ukraine could such a thing occur where Rome and the Eastern Catholics occupied themselves with the canonization of an Orthodox saint . . ."

Father Sergius Keleher (+memory eternal!) once told me during a telephone conversation that, in his words, "Rome in fact was fully prepared to canonize St Job when the Lavra of Pochayiv fell back into Orthodox hands . . ."

It was the Latin Catholic turned Greek Catholic Basilian Third Order member, Count Myron Pototsky, who paid, out of his own great personal wealth, to have the Pochayiv icon formally crowned with Papal crowns. He also personally promoted the cause of St Job at Rome (and he gave funds to the fiercely anti-Unia Orthodox Skete of Manjava).

As Metropolitan Ohienko said, "He (Pototsky) clearly didn't see a difference between Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy . . . ").

May the same be said of all of us!

The icon of St Job does appear in Eastern Catholic Churches and especially in some Basilian publications which depict a monk praying before the altar of the Pochayiv Mother of God. Recently, a Ukrainian Catholic Church in Toronto adopted this icon for a chapel where the monk in question is referred to as . . ."St Josaphat." But there are also two "saints" with haloes in that Church - Metropolitan Klym Smolyatych (who was never glorified by anyone nor was he ever venerated as a saint) and . . . the figure of Judas in the icon of the Mystical Supper.

Alex

I recall seeing years ago on-line icons of Saint Josaphat and Saint Job side by side on the wall of a Ukrainian Catholic parish. Oh, I would love to see that again!

The Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia have promoted that, however, on the idea that they were being persecuted for their adoption of Orthodoxy, a chrismation of blood as it were.
http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2011/11/19/jan-hus-jerome-of-prague-and-orthodoxy-in-czechia-slovakia/