www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Byzantine point of view about RC teachings on Mary

Opinions on this please?

From CAF:

Originally Posted by Richca
ConstantineTG; greetings.

That the Holy Spirit works only by or through Mary in the distribution of graces is exactly what I mean. It is not a misinterpretation of what I said. For we call Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces. Now, that the Holy Spirit can distribute alone without Mary the graces and gifts that Jesus merited for us by his passion and death is quite obvious. For the Holy Spirit is God. However, because of the role that Mary played and still plays in the redemption of mankind, by God's will and ordination, the Holy Spirit distributes all his graces and gifts only through Mary.

This is what St Maximilian Kolbe says: " The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit works only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his spouse. This is why she is the Mediatrix of all grace given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose."

Again he says: " The Holy Spirit does not confer any grace, the Father does not give supernatural life to any soul by the Son and the Holy Spirit, unless these gifts are bestowed through the Mediatrix of all grace, the Immaculata, who cooperates in the giving, and distributes them as she wills. She obtains from God all the treasures of grace, as belonging to her, and she distributes them to whomsoever she wills, as she wills."

St Maximilian Kolbe's teaching is not new. Many saints before him have said the same thing such as St Louis Marie de Montfort. His teaching is biblical and derived from the doctrines and dogmas of the faith. A number of popes have said that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces. Indeed, the movement that St Maximilian founded, the Knights of the Immaculata, which is approved by the Church, is based on the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces.

She obtains from God all the treasures of grace, as belonging to her, and she distributes them to whomsoever she wills, as she wills."

Since Mary's will is perfectly united to the Father's, it strikes me as a moot point.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this strikes me though as if Mary is in charge of distributing grace. Regardless of her will is united perfectly with God, is this something Patristic?

Since the quote you're talking about comes from another forum (CAF), you should keep in mind what Irish Melkite and dzheremi said on yet another forum (OCnet):

Well, there are hardly any Byzantines in CAF nowadays to defend the Byzantine position. Only a couple of Orthodox left and another few ECs.

But anyway, we can ignore this thread. I'm ignoring the one in CAF too. I don't care anymore what Catholics think.

That's not easy to do. I suspect you'll soon find yourself caring again. (Perhaps you already do and don't realize it.)

CAF has busily been driving all Orthodox and all Eastern Catholics away for several years. I'm surprised that any are left.

I've been busy, but the idea of Mary as mediatrix of graces apparently is found in the homily of St. Bernard on the Nativity of Mary. I haven't had a chance yet to track down the text, but it's quoted in a lot of places like Pius XII's encyclical Doctor mellifluus [vatican.va]:
So, patristic? The same encylical quotes Jean Mabillion [newadvent.org] as calling Bernard (1090-1153) "the last of the Fathers, but certainly not inferior to the earlier ones".

Is the late eleventh and early twelth century too late for "patristic." Well... there's the "patristic" theology of Palamas (1296–1359). This essay by orthodox theologian Fr. George Florovsky [orthodoxinfo.com] actually mentions Mabillon and Bernard and discusses the idea that "patristic" is not just a chronological designation.

Point taken. (I would say more, but I think I would just end up repeating stuff I said earlier on the thread that Neil started about CAF.)

Continue then nailing shut the coffin in which you've buried the hope of the reestablishment of communion among the Sister Churches!

Well, Fr. Abbot (don't worry, Ot'ets, I Google Translated your username), it's safe to say, that... As long as Eastern and Roman Catholics are all under the Vatican's jurisdiction, I'm sure there'll be nothing to worry about. We'll be together in communion for quite some time yet. I doubt CAF will go too far with doing what they're doing. In fact, I'd much rather align myself as being Eastern Catholic rather than be stuck in the Latin Rite all of the rest of my life than have to deal with this hullabaloo from the CAF.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I think some of the responses on the historicity of calling the Theotokos Mediatrix have been helpful in addressing the question that started this thread. As to the spirit of welcome (or lack thereof) on any particular forum, I think some things are better left unsaid.

If we turn to our hymnography as Byzantine Christians to obtain a Byzantine point of view, I think the following data are clear:
1). Eastern Catholics and Orthodox see our Salvation as coming through Mary. After all, we pray, "Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us."
Or to be even more full, if you sing the troparion for the pre feast of the Nativity of the Theotokos:

"Today is born to us, from the root of Jesse and the loins of David, Mary, the godly child. Therefore, all creation rejoices and is renewed. Heaven and earth rejoice together. You families of nations sing her praise. Joachim is elated and Anna cries out in celebration: The barren woman gives birth to the Theotokos and the Sustainer of our Life."

As another example there is this Theotokion:

"Steadfast Protectress of Christians, unshakable Mediatrix before the Creator, do not despise the prayerful voices of sinners; but in your goodness hurry to assist those who faithfully cry out to you. Hasten to intercede and heed our supplication, interceding always, Theotokos, in behalf of those who honor you."

Mediatrix of all Graces sounds less poetic than what I quoted above, in my humble opinion.

2) But Eastern Catholics and Orthodox also see our Salvation as coming through other saints, in addition to the Theotokos.

When we sing troparia to other holy ones, the overall vision of them as being one who brings grace and salvation can be seen there as well.

The simple troparion for an apostle:

"O holy apostle intercede with the merciful God, that he may grant our souls forgiveness of sins."

or for a Prophet:
"As we celebrate the memory of your prophet [name] O Lord, we implore you to save our souls through his prayers."

These troparia convey the same message as what is sung to the Mother of God, albeit with less fervor. But if we were to quote canons for matins, I think we would see the same message conveyed. I can recall times praying matins and in the canon I've felt as though my whole salvation was wrapped up in that one man or woman.

I think that leads to....

3) One good response to the RC teachings on Mary is to say, "yes, AND..."

Yes, and, meaning, yes, as we pray to the Mother of God and seek her, we feel no lack of support, comfort, mediation, etc. But And, meaning, And, as we have devotion to every saint who is united to God through the mystery of theosis, we Byzantine Christians feel no lack of support and the like with them either. As we pour our devotion out to other saints, we feel that all graces come from them too.

So we should applaud their devotion, and ask them to see that devotion can be seen in all saints.

I suppose the other point is that if I were to pray Matins about St. X and then start advocating that those who do not see him as the fount of all salvation, when someone else has a devotion to St. Y, it might be helpful for me to step back and see the all saints as united to God.

Truly, only the Theotokos gave birth to God the Word, and that places her highest among all saints. But that a poor man's devotion to St. Seraphim or Blessed Theodore might quantitatively take more time of their prayer life (or the Jesus Prayer vs. the Rosary) does not qualitatively deny that.

Lastly, I would say that you can't please all people, and some people will never be happy unless all Christians have some devotion. As a Catholic, until a council or authoritative statement from a Bishop who has jurisdiction over us comes to modify pious practices, I don't worry about comments on a forum that end up stressing a view or pious practice. It may be good for their salvation, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord through our Byzantine Tradition.

In XC,
J. Andrew

J. Andrew,

Thank you for your eloquent response.

The humor of my being an abbot was lost on the lady abbess of the severely penitential 'monastery' in which I dwell! You won't be the first to be traduced by Google Translator!

I second Brother Paul B's response . I also had my Orthodox choir director friend explain it to me, too, as I heard the term Mediatrix used, in a recent Vespers service.