www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Is your parish geared towards Byzantine Spirituality or Ethnicity

I recently started attending a Ruthenian parish, and was struck on just how diverse the parish was. Of course there are the ethnic Ruthenians, but then there are Macedonians, Arabs, Poles, and more. This is not even counting the number of people of RC backgrounds that attend there. The parish events are definitely more focused on spirituality than ethnicity.

How I wish our parish is much like your.

Our parish is very definitely non-ethnic, but it hasn't always been this way. In the 70s, my family and one other were the only non-ethnic members. Now we're a definite mix of ethnic members, converts, Latin rite and a couple of Chaldeans. We definitely have a lot of ethnic visitors on major holidays. I kind of miss the ethnic flair, myself. When our priest first arrived from Slovakia, he said "Christos razdajetsja" and received a bunch of blank stares and a few murmured responses in return. These days, the only way our parish can survive into the future is to welcome those who truly love the liturgy and byzantine spirituality, regardless of ethnicity.

We Orthodox endlessly debate the same question - to the point of terminal boredom. My POV - all things in moderation, and the two - ethnicity (i.e. a community) and spirituality are NOT mutually exclusive - however one should never be confused with the other.

Babochka,
Nothing wrong with diversity, and there's nothing wrong with also teaching people to say, "Slavite Jeho!"

I take the question as a false dichotomy, but understand the importance of not emphasizing one issue to the exclusion of the other.

Mr. Deane and I are in full agreement. I cannot see why vernacular and traditional languages cannot exist side-by-side, nor can I see any reason why the ethnic identity of a parish should be suppressed. In no way does that make a parish "less welcoming", unless we're dealing with xenophobia--on both sides.

If it's bad for a parish to reject people who aren't (Ukrainian/Greek/Rusyn/Middle Eastern), it's equally bad for outsiders to reject a parish just because the people there are (Ukrainian/Greek/Rusyn/Middle Eastern). Instead of jettisoning ethnic customs, just expand them, grafting on new customs. That's how a tradition grows.

I also think a lot of people here sell short on the attractions of a parish that offers a culture different from the mainstream. People are looking for something different, they're looking for something that lifts them out of the mainstream. Properly managed, the ethnic patrimony of a parish can be deeply attractive, as can selective use of a traditional language.

Believe me, if Epiphany of Our Lord had been as homogenized and bland as some people seem to want parishes to be, I would never have joined the Church.

That is NOT an argument for de-ethnicizing parishes, by the way.

I would have to concur; joyously. Ethnicity can be celebrated appropriately, i.e., in a manner pleasing to God. I think what most of us in the Church react against perhaps, is a type of racism, i.e., an individual believing themself or their people-group, and everything that goes with being "nash," as superior over others. Someone once said to me that Americans cannot be Orthodox because they cannot understand what is essentially an oriental vs. western Faith; implied and explicit meaning - unless someone is Russian, Ukrainian, etc., etc., they cannot become an Eastern Christian. There is much to glean from the culture of people from other countries - things good and things not so good; the Holy Spirit teaches us and leads us to discern what is good and worthy of honor and that which is bad, evil and to be discarded.

Well, tbh, I have nothing but the deepest respect for Eastern Catholic or Orthodox religions in our area. Seeing all the diversity, it's easy to see why a lot of parishes are reaching out to bring in more nationalities rather than just their own, even in the clergy ranks. If you've been to St. Josaphat, even though it's a Ukrainian Cathedral, not everyone on the clergy, nor those that worship there are necessarily Ukrainian. In fact, we have a priest that's actually Latin-American (Fr. Claudio Melnicki). So there is loads of diversity in what was a nationality Eparchy and Church.

There may be a little something to that. Most outside observers don't think Americans can really be Roman Catholic, either. Certainly, American Catholic culture is very different from what one finds in traditionally Catholic countries (Spain, Italy, Ireland, Poland, etc.), because American Catholics are shaped by the mainstream--and intrinsically Protestant--culture around them. As sociologist Samuel Huntington noted, "American Catholics are basically Protestants who go to Mass and like Mary". And he was more than half right.

So, the essential question is whether Orthodoxy in America, like Catholicism in America is going to be a unique flavor, or just an imitation of Orthodoxy in the Old Country. All evidence points to it being something new and rather more dynamic, particularly in convert-driven Churches.

Hmm... Weird, yet at the same time, if one claims that they are Catholic in that sense, then how come the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches think they can take in the American Latin Rite that easily, knowing this? I mean, I felt more than welcomed to fully partake in the DLs at St. Josaphat Ukrainian, Holy Spirit Ruthenian, etc... I don't think of Catholics in this country being considered Protestants at all. Whoever came up with that idea, heh... I'd like to know about him/her.

A question to this thread. Is ethnicity (society)tied into spirituality, thus making it hard for the East to separate the two?

I am asking because I ran across this from the Eastern Code of Cannon Law.

Canon 28 -- CCEO

A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and
disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a
distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is
manifested in each Church sui iuris.

Canon 28 is of great value when it is understood in light of the Church's mission to be Catholic. The blessed memory of Bl. John Paul II's challenge, to breathe with both lungs, must remain as a goal for every local church. Why limit our access to the Holy Spirit working in all the churches?

Well, in historic parts of Cleveland, there are some RC Churches that do take after the old European (mainly German-style) Churches, although most of them are catered to the Hispanics now (gee, go figure). However, I do agree, in terms of those churches in the suburbs, you might have a point. When I go to my normal RC Church (St. Charles), it almost does feel like a Lutheran or Methodist Church with the hymns they sing sometimes, as well as even more modern hymns through the OCP Missals and Music Issues, etc... Now when I go to the Byzantine Church (Holy Spirit), there it feels more like a real European Catholic Church, from the wooden iconistas, felt-cushioned pews, pristine glass chandalier, etc...

There are no pews in most European Catholic Churches. The pew is, in fact, a Protestant innovation, possibly the worst thing to come out of the Reformation.

Oops, you're right about that. I was at a Russian Orthodox Church at a festival, where they gave a tour, and you're absolutely right, it almost felt like you were in Moscow or St. Petersburg when you were in there. So, forgive me for thinking that pews were anything in European Churches. It's definitely too American to have pews in Catholic and Orthodox Churches for sure. Plus, in European Churches, I think I'm right in assuming that men and women are separated during Liturgy, men are on the right side of the Communion Aisle, and women are on the left, and women have to wear veils, and all that.