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A few oddly phrased points, but an interesting read.

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2012/10/16/the-byzantine-catholic-road-to-orthodoxy/

Alexandr

He seems to be speaking principally of the Ruthenian Church. I wonder how many people its attenuated liturgical and spiritual life drives into either the Orthodox or the Latin Church?

This interview can also be heard online:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/il...o_from_and_back_again_to_the_orthodox_ch

I recall liking it (although it's been a little while, so it's hard to be certain).

Not just Ruthenians, considering the BCC and the ACROD, but then the Ukrainian Church in the UGCC and UOC, this, too, could be something this book could wind up going with, to a point.

Many have made that journey and more do so all the time.

I wonder this, too.

My wife and I are on a mission to visit every Byzantine/Orthodox parish within 30 miles.

So far we have only visited a handful of parishes. Christ the Savior Carpatho-Russian Orthodox has an almost identical experience to the Ruthenian Church before Bishop Kudrick deformed the liturgy (yes, I know that Bishop Pataki was the first liturgical deformer back in the 1980s). The liturgical experience in the Ukrainian Churches (St. Josaphat UGCC and St. Vladimir UO) is identical. St. Theodosius Cathedral was really great. But Saint Sergius Cathedral is fantastic. It's the only one that I think gives us the spirit filled experience that Jeremy 'Basil' Dannebohm describes in the article. For them liturgy is life and it shows.

I don't think that anything can save the Ruthenians at this point. They are so committed to deforming the liturgy and being politically correct that they actually rejoice when those of us who lean orthodox/Orthodox leave.

I would feel more comfortable about Joe in Slavland's statement if I had confidence that he actually understood what he meant by the phrase "deforming the liturgy". So, in the interests of clarity, could he please describe in some detail what he means by "deformation"?

Well, then you have St. Teresa's Romanian Catholic Church (Gordon Square area), and St. Mary's Romanian Orthodox Church (West Park/Lakewood border on Warren). I know I took the tour of St. Mary's when I was up there during their Romanian Festival, and the priest seemed very nice. However, I've been past, but never in St. Teresa's. Not sure what the Liturgical differences are there.

My UGCC parish in upstate NY is great.

You're invited, although I realize the drive time might be a hindrance.

I owe my soul to Christ through the UGCC, so I'll die before I see Greek Catholicism extinguished on this soil.

Things are bad in many places. The same can be said of the Latin Church, and for Orthodoxy. I'm not judging anyone's spiritual life.

But I will tell you this - when I read about defections to Orthodoxy - or intra-Catholic defections to the Latin Church - that just means I'm going to pray and sacrifice that much harder. Anyone who reads this, I beg you to join me.

"Defections" to Orthodoxy? Since, eventually and inevitably, it is (in the words of Bishop John Michael of Canton) the vocation of Eastern Catholics to "disappear" back into their Mother Churches (the Orthodox are our mothers, not Rome, thank you) when full ecclesial communion is reestablished, I can hardly look upon those who become impatient for the fullness of the Orthodox Tradition and decide to return "prematurely" as "defectors". They are simply going home, as we will all go home, when the time is right for each of us.

Thanks, but I only live, like, only about six or seven blocks away from St. Josaphat Cathedral (maybe only that much from St. Vladimir UOC as well). However, with those Ukrainian Cathedrals, having St. Francis De Sales Latin-Rite Church right smack-dab in the middle of those, heh... Looks like there's loads of Catholicism of all flavors there. Then you have St. John the Baptist Ruthenian Cathedral a few blocks from that, so it's a very diverse area. Gotta love living in the middle of an Eparchial Seat like Parma.

Stuart's use of the third person is a little odd, Peter thinks.

Does he spend a lot of time around DMD?

Open the 1974 "Byzantine Book of Prayer" or any of the older prayer books, or the text from any of the Orthodox Churches. They are not identical but they are close. Then open the Ruthenian Revised Divine Liturgy. Compare the two. The differences will be obvious. I won't get into the inventions like Vespergy and Matinsgy (sort of the first half of Vespers or Matins and the second half of the Divine Liturgy). Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! There is nothing about the RDL that is an improvement over the official books.

On the contrary, I don't think that the Ukrainian Liturgy really changed much at all since the fall of the Soviet Union, although I don't think you hear much about what revisions the UGCC Liturgy went through. Although I do have the Anthology on its way, so I'll definitely see what things are like. Although I attended St. Josaphat last weekend (attended St. Charles today due to their feast day), and for next weekend, St. Josaphat will be having their huge weekend retreat, and dinner the day after. Looks like it'll be a big month of November for almost everyone.

Joe in Slavland ought to know that I am eminently familiar with the changes wrought in the Teal Terror (TM). I am, after all, a charter member of the Ruthenian Old Ritualists in Exile.

Now, leaving that abomination aside, I want to know precisely what changes to the liturgy he feels are "deforming". He's already said he thinks that aural chanting of the anaphora prayers is an "innovation". Does he oppose restoration of the Third Antiphon? How about the Little Litanies and all the Antiphon verses? Use of the proper tones for the Alleluia, Cherubikon, Theotokion and Lord's Prayer?

In addition, Joe implied that it was not merely the Ruthenians who were deforming the liturgy, but all Greek Catholics. I want some evidence of this. And then I would like him to compare Greek Catholic practice with the reality of actual Orthodox celebrations of the liturgy. Has he been to a Greek parish lately> How about OCA, AOC, ROCOR and ACROD. Bad as we are, we have no monopoly on bad liturgy, and what's written in the books often has scant resemblance to what is celebrated at the altar.