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As you know, I don't share your ecclesiology, so I don't accept this line of argumentation.

The Catholic Communion is the mother of us all, regardless of rite. That communion is not the same as "Rome," or the Roman Rite, so I'm not going to argue that straw man (not saying that you would, but someone else may). Nor am I imputing any special magic to the word "Catholic;" when the churches unite, they may call themselves OICWR or whatever suits them.

The Orthodox should come back to their mother.

I have great empathy for the Orthodox; indeed, if I could wave a magic wand and have 75% of the human race follow the Greek Rite, I would do so in a heartbeat. If I could wave said wand and bring the Orthodox back into union with the most liberal and pro-Orthodox terms possible, I would also do that. Therefore, I wish them the best.

However, Catholic unity is a prior commitment to ritual preference, and I am in conscience bound to point out that I believe that it is a grave matter to actively encourage someone to break from that unity.

In fact - and I take no joy in saying this - I believe that the philosophy that you are espousing above is "suicide by inches" for the Greek Rite. Although the Orthodox churches are true churches, they lack the same divine blessing that the Catholic communion has, and it is my grave fear that they will go the way of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, that is, to virtual extinction (Cf. St. Bonaventure, Collations on the Hexameron, I forget the chapter). This would be an absolute calamity.

I understand that this is a politically incorrect belief on this forum. Hopefully it comes through that I am writing from love and not from chauvinism.

I know that on forums there are many times more readers than posters - they are the reason I post at all - and to you readers I say - God Save the Greek Catholic Churches!

I take no pleasure whatsoever in writing this, but I think it more likely that the Eastern Catholic Churches will experience extinction than the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

What you mean in saying that is that the Orthodox should submit themselves to the rule of the Pope of Rome. Given the history of how the Eastern Churches under the yoke of Rome have been treated by Rome, and indeed, how they oftentimes still are, why in the world would the Orthodox want to do that?

Well now you're just being difficult.

P.S. Oops. Now Stuart is just being difficult, Peter meant to say..

Stuart,

FYI, the Ruthenian Revised Divine Liturgy does not restore the Third Antiphon, the little Litanies or all the Antiphon verses or any of the rest. They are all there in the official books (our former priest called it the "Red Book"). Any change to the "Red Book" (the complete Liturgy published by Rome and that you can also find in any Orthodox Liturgy Book) is a deformity. You are free to tell me how stupid the scholars in Rome and our Rusyn ancestors are but I will reject it.

Come to Cleveland and visit Saint Sergius. The Ruthenians may not have a monopoly on bad liturgy but Saint Sergius certainly sets the standard for good liturgy.

Joe

I did visit St. Sergius during their Russian Festival, and found it to be very old-world style. Certainly a lot more so than St. Sava or St. Vladimir combined. Although I know it's apples and oranges, considering that they are different nationality Orthodox Churches, but even so.

Although I don't see eye-to-eye with Stuart, I should say that the Orthodox Churches are our mother, not the other way around.

Heck, even the Balamand Agreement said "Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other".


I don't speak for the forum at large, but speaking for myself I don't doubt that you're writing from love (even though I disagree with what you're saying).

Given that Joe in Slavland wants to teach me to suck eggs, I've decided talking to him is pretty much a waste of time. The rest of you know, of course, the extent of my admiration for the old Red Book and those who compiled it. You also know the extent of my criticism of the RDL. I don't have to justify my opinions to those of you who already know them.

I'll take your word for that. Even so, I would still think you would care about the impression that other posters form about you, based on what you say to (or about) him.

Not quite sure what the point is to this topic? Eastern/Byzantine Catholics go Orthodox and Orthodox go Eastern/Byzantine Catholic. Not sure what the numbers are one way or another? Perhaps one or the other does so more frequently, but so what? I for one am tired of the triumphalism, which seems to be a part of these kinds of topics. Bottom line for me is whether or not my life is undergoing the necessary transformation into Christ-likeness through repentance by the grace of the Holy Spirit. So, is the Holy Spirit present in the Byzantine Catholic Churches - yes; is the Holy Sprit present in the Orthodox Churches - yes; is the Holy Spirit present in the Roman Catholic Church - yes. Given this truth seems that the more important question is whether or not I have truly begun to repent?

As anybody who has been here for any time will tell you, you think wrong.

The more permeable the boundary, the better, I think. Eventually, I hope people forget there is any difference, and will behave that way.

No, I am trying to convince you to consider that the whole package of the RDL is misguided (at best) and should be rejected. And that we should simply return to the liturgy as printed in the official books. We should not omit anything. That means the third antiphons and the little litanies and everything. You seem to want to pick and choose the parts of the RDL that you like and reject what you don't like. That's the same criteria that the bishops and the committee to revise the liturgy used. It's better to reject the whole RDL package and go back to the real, full liturgy. But this is water under the bridge because the bishops are not about to make any changes and openly tell people who don't like the RDL they should leave.

Well, maybe I'm a hopeless optimist.

A number of posters having been pushing the thread away from its topic (and I'll confess to having been a little guilty of that myself). But I think your post brings us back to it nicely.


Is there no room for different opinions?

(That's not to say that I'm going to convert. In fact, I always say that if I had been born into Orthodoxy I wouldn't convert to Catholicism, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to convert to Orthodoxy either.)