www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Comments on this forum concerning the presidential election

Having seen the "vice-presidential debate and the Catholic vote" thread make its way to the top of the front page again, I have to say that I am utterly bewildered by the apocalyptic tone of many of the posts.

From the point of view of a traditional Eastern Christian living in Britain, it seems incredible that many Catholic (and - dare I say it - Evangelical) Americans should seem, virtually, to confuse the outcome of a presidential election with the end of time.

In response, I would like to offer some thoughts from the point of view of a Canadian ex-pat in Europe. But before anyone says - as one forum member on here once did, in fairly forceful terms - that they don't care what the rest of the world thinks, I want to offer a couple of pre-emptory comments first. As I have expressed before, I grew up in Canada and love America. I spent every Christmas from age 5 to 21 travelling down to South Texas, have visited a majority of the country, and maintain close friendships with Americans. I love the place, I love the people, I love its history, and I love the principles on which it is founded. Indeed, I could go on and on in detail about all the things I admire and believe to be good about America. That does not mean I am not critical, however, as we should all be critical of things we love. Beyond being merely self-critical, though, I also think that it is important to listen to others. It is not good enough for a traditional Christian in America to reject the comments and criticisms of foreign friends just because they are foreign, and therefore biased. We are one in Christ, and if we desire the same things (such as life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and fidelity to Christ), then we should be able to listen to one another and hear what perspectives might be on offer from those who are far enough away to have a different view of things.

That said, at least one view from the outside (from a bona fide traditional member of Christ's Church), is that all this rhetoric suggesting Obama is somehow the herald of some brave new world, repleat with pro-death health policies, Marxist economic policies, and inherently destructive foreign policies, and that all good Christians must resist him, is patently absurd.

Let me be clear: I will not for one second presume to say what makes for good domestic policy in America. It is plain to see for anyone who has eyes, however, that what Obama has to say in America is simply the way of the world today. Thinking for one second that a politician would be able to fight the tide and do other than what Obama is doing is ridiculous. And it is this that makes conservatives in America look naive to the rest of the world... even to those of us who share pretty much the same beliefs.

America has elected a liberal president who will try to implement his vision for the next four years. He will do so only by working with Congress and the Senate. By the time he leaves, four years will have passed, some legislation will have succeeded, and some will have failed. No big deal really. Gay marriage will almost certainly become 'normal'. Pro-abortion legislation may work its way through the system. But these things would happen anyway. If not under Obama, then on a State-by-State basis.

The fact is, those of us seeking to live faithfully and to engage in any sort of evangelical work must recognise that the landscape has changed. There isn't a Western country that will withstand the onslaught. But in political terms, who cares? The state was never going to be our salvation. It is, and always has been, incumbent on us as Christians to pursue and manifest what is true both in our individual lives and in the ecclesia, regardless of the nature of the state at the time. And while the state can sometimes help our cause, it more often than not gets in the way and sometimes even rages against it... But when has it ever been different? In the 1950s? The 1930s? The 1530s? It hasn't.

I am slightly embarrassed by the right-wing religious response of many in the US right now; not because I disagree with their desires, but because of the apparent naivete they are expressing, and in the most extreme circumstances, their destructive inflammatory language. All it does it make it harder to be taken seriously as traditional Christians in the public square pretty much everywhere else in the world that has a different political/religious culture and language to that of the US.

I doubt this post will go down well, if, indeed, it goes anywhere at all; but I can’t think of anywhere else to suggest in charity that, if we just get on with being faithful, the politics of an Obama presidency (or anyone else for that matter) won’t really matter. Western civilisation as we knew it is no longer the same. As Lady Wisdom said to Boethius:

'What is it, then, poor mortal, that hath cast thee into lamentation and mourning? Some strange, unwonted sight, methinks, have thine eyes seen. Thou deemest Fortune to have changed towards thee; thou mistakest. Such ever were her ways, ever such her nature.’

I have posted on other discussion sites--sometimes ignored, sometimes mocked--that the election reveals a utter failure of catechesis, particularly in the so-called "blue cities".

While we should not expect the state to impart our moral vision, nevertheless we should be repententent of our failure to "commend to others the faith that is within us", to borrow a line from one litany of Confession.

I am of the opinion that the reason the Republican candidate lost, is because so many of the registered voters in the party didn't vote. I read that only 38% or so did vote - can't verify the statistic. If it is true, however, it merely indicates that the party hierarchy didn't do a very good job of getting out the vote. We will all survive the next four years, I believe, and am not greatly worried about that.

Although I'm sure there are going to be those tempted to leave the country in protest, and searching for a country that will take in the evangelicals, like us, that Obamacare will hurt the most. It's like I said, it almost feels like the exact same government that drove us, our parents, our grandparents, etc... out of Eastern and Central Europe, which now under Obama's second term, we might wind up having to return to these countries if things go wrong.

President Obama is not the true problem, it's the modern secular culture and its moral errors that are the problem and it's only going to get worse. Obama is just the current figurehead of that secular vision. Whether he's president or not, it will continue to go forward because radical secularism is the direction the whole Western world has chosen to go right now and like it or not we're along for the ride.

As people of faith we should get used to the idea that soon we are going to be in the minority when it comes to our moral convictions. We can be a light in this world, but we aren't going to change the world or the course it's on right now with arguements or debates. Civil discussion or discourse between opposing sides has become impossible. All we can do is live our faith and love and pray for our enemies. All the angry lecturing and ranting from those on the right is only going to have the opposite effect and harden people's hearts even more to the truth.

Roll over and play dead....also known as "putting a bushel basket over our light." Christ, St Paul and the other apostles and saints throughout the ages didn't accept the deception of Satan, but preached God's love and mercy.

No, we shouldn't rant, and we should respect others; but we also are made in God's image and as such we deserve respect. Let the Europeans laugh at us; I fear someday they will either be pagan or Muslim.

My Faith won't allow me to accept sodomy and abortion. Sorry (not really).

I in no way said we should accept sodomy or abortion or any other evil - just the opposite. I'm just saying that Christians can often seem to spend a disproportionate amount of their energy on trying to "fix" things through political activism when the whole political arena is corrupt and to a great extent unfixable. Better to focus on changing the culture instead, which produces the politicians that represent it. The culture is the root of the problem.

Okay, I agree about changing the culture. How do you go about that? Turn off the tv, stop going to movies, get involved in government....oh, wait. That's taboo.

Do you see where we're going with this? Good citizenship includes encouraging good candidates and electing them because they are not just spokesmen... they legislate what is moral. They can also shut down churches and persecute Christians if they see the culture is pleased by this. Isn't that the reason for Christians vs lions in the Coliseum?

American bishops are fairly liberal as a whole; you see what this government has done to them. The policy of our President is to divide the Catholic Church through contraceptive policies. I don't know how closely you follow American politics, but his vision doesn't include an independent and theological opposed Church.

How much has the Western European Catholics favorably affected the European Union? Before you find criticism with our efforts and find us foolish methinks that Western Europe provides a poor example.

To sin by silence, when they should protest, makes cowards of men! Abraham Lincoln

The same way secular liberals did it--the long march through the institutions.

I'm not sure why you think that I'm attacking you. Where did you get the idea I'm calling you or anyone else "fools"??
You probably have insights into the political world that I don't. It just seems to me the whole US governement was only designed to work if God is a significant part of the equation. What do you do when the people start voting against God? The governement will represent the will of the people and an increasing percentage of the people don't want God or just don't care either way. What if a conservative Christian candidate is eventually no longer even electable? "Before kingdoms change, men must change".

I'm not saying we roll over and play dead or that we be silent. All I'm saying is that soon we might have to learn to co-exist among people who enthusiastically embrace many things that we reject. They are the ones who are going to become more hostile towards us and what we believe. How are we going to deal with this? When that happens, what are we going to do, give in to anger, hatred? We can't, otherwise we lose. I don't have the answers, but I'm just saying we need to focus on being spiritually united to Christ and develop love for our enemies or we'll let them destroy us spiritually. Anyway, I'm on your side brother, so c'mon, at least be at peace with me!

Oh, this is rich. We should just roll over, accept that this is the way of the world, and try to do the best we can. And if we don't, Western Europe will think us naive?
Methinks that the socialist states of western Europe are rejoicing in the downfall of America. And that those of us who reject their "liberated" thinking are not to be taken seriously. Well, sorry to burst your bubble.
When the Nazis came to power, the German Jews did pretty much what you are implying. "Its a new world" and "How bad can it be?" The Russian citizenry did pretty much the same in 1920. Well we saw how helpful that reasoning was to the Jews and Russians.
And as far as my "destructive inflammatory language", if it makes one person think clearly, than so be it.

There will be a lot more "destructive inflammatory language" shortly.

For the first time in living memory the heavily UMW (United Mine Workers) Union areas of SW Pa and West Virginia openly went Republican. Who'd of ever thought? And for good reason.
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/11/...-off-102-workers-over-obama-war-on-coal/

And people are preparing for what is coming down the pike.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/fin...un-makers-see-sales-boom-after-election/

So not to worry Slavophile. When we are done fixing the mess that the left has made in this country, we may just come over and fix the mess that Europe has made for itself.

Alexandr

Slavipodvizhnik, while I think your propensity to cast political elections as emblematic of some great cosmic struggle between a (very) singular and exclusive understanding of human freedom and goodness and the forces of hell itself is unfortunate, even if I consented to it for the purposes of this discussion, I would certainly not compare the position I am suggesting with 'rolling over, accepting that this is the way of the world, and trying to do the best we can'.

In the battle seems to be going in a different direction than the one you originally perceived, then hammering away at a position the enemy has long since either won or vacated is pointless.

In any case, what would have been different had Romney won?

There will most likely be 4 Supreme Court vacancies within the next 4 years. If Romney had won, it would have ensured that the appointees would not be socialists. We already know what Obama appointees smell like.
As I have stated before, I am no great admirer of Romney. This election was between the moderate left and the radical left. Our choice was between Pneumonia and Typhoid. Both are bad, but Pneumonia is easier to fix.
And no, my friend, the Godless Left has not won. And if your answer is to roll over and die because you feel the Godless have won, then I now understand why Britain will be Muslim in 5 years.

Well, truth be told, even if we don't agree with secularity and big government intrusions of our daily living, we will unfortunately have to embrace it beyond our willpower, but I'm not saying "hold up the white flag in defeat" either. Although the best candidates were the ones that were voted out of the primaries, and/or involved in a so-called "scandal" that we have no evidence really happened (sorry Mr. Cain, you would have been my pick). Had that not been brought up, and had Herman Cain won the primary, he would have gotten even more of the vote than Romney did in the November election, and not because of race, either, even though he is more African American than Obama is.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
I posted this the night of the election, it encapsulates my thoughts on the election:

http://prayerofsaintephrem.wordpress.com/2012/11/06/todays-election-todays-gospel-reading/