www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Not January 7th, then...

Indeed - you are quite correct on that Bob - 2014 we will all celebrate The Feast of Feasts together

Couple of things...Thanks to Bob for pointing out that ALL of us celebrate Christmas on December 25th - some of us are just like the west coast - on a different time zone! Seriously though, it is a common misconception that Pascha is determined in a similar fashion to the fixed holydays. In reality, the Orthodox use the Julian calander for the purpose of determining the vernal equinox, i.e. the first full moon of the spring, in setting the date of Pascha and ensuring that it does not precede or coincide with Passover. (In other words, the Orthodox do not follow the real, astronomical equinox, but rather the date upon which it would have fallen had the Julian calendar not slipped 13 days behind the astronomical event.)

This is a subject of some debate within theological circles both East and West, but suffice it to say, any farmer in northern European climates who would have used the Julian equinox to determine when to plow and plant long season crops would likely have run into Jack Frost far more often than would his Roman Catholic neighbors come September and the back end of the growing season!

On a sidenote, both my grandfather and my wife's grandmother were born on January 6th, N.S. prior to 1900. When they were children their birthday coincided with Christmas, when the Julian lost another day to the Gregorian in 1900 - presto - the birthday stayed the same on the civil calendar and became Christmas Eve!

I was always told the main point was to never have Pascha before the Jewish passover. But that does not matter for the Orthodox for very few have adopted the Paschalion of the west. As for the rest of it "if it aint broke don't fix it." Its rather nice to not have the added pressures of commercialism that the Catholics face with their feast days.

It is probably worth noting that the West doesn't use the actual astronomical equinox either. Depending on the year the astronomical equinox occurs sometime between March 19th and March 21st -- a quick glance at google tells me this year it falls on the 20th.

Granted the difference (relative to the astronomical equinox) is at most 2 days (and could be as little as 0), where as taking the equinox as March 21st on the Julian calendar is different by at least 13 days -- but the west is using an approximation which does, on occasion, result in a different date for Easter. If you'd like to see a table of Easter dates for the 3 calendars (Astronomical, Gregorian, & Julian) Wikipedia has a good table (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter#Reform_of_the_date ), note the difference in 2019.

Very true. Although the dates I find for Pascha on both calendars comes from the Ukrainian Anthology on pages 1148 - 1149.

Do we really have to go on chewing over this - yet again ?

Each of us celebrates according to the practice of our own Church .

Yes- some use a different Calendar , sometimes the Parish use both Calendars .

BUT - we all celebrate the Feasts when they fall.

If you are visiting a Church for the first time at a Festal Season - then it's sensible to check beforehand

Apparently no less than twice yearly.

Oh do forgive "us" less educated in all things pertaining to the calender. I shall do my best to refrain from offending those that deserve our patience when it comes to broaching topics. Please do guide me in proper subject matter?

That's right: no one outside of Finland and Estonia.

Hence the reason, besides it being the day of Resurrection, for celebrating the first Sunday AFTER the Paschal moon-the Jewish calculation is on the paschal moon (hence the name).

The corollary of that is "fix it, since it is broke."

Only if you live in a country where the Orthodox are a minority of Christians, except Estonia.

That's like saying that outside of the former Soviet Union, the majority of Orthodox follow the New Calendar.

Or better yet, the majority of Orthodox Christians follow the Julian Calender.

Thank you, Bob. It always annoys me when people say Nativity is celebrated on January 7th on the Julian calendar, while they are actually talking about January 7th on the Gregorian calendar. It's always on December 25th, as you say.

In Greece the Orthodox, Byzantine Catholics and Latin Rite celebrate Christmas on the Gregorian calendar.

Pascha is celebrated by all using the Julian calendar.

What is all the more complicating is that neither the Julian nor the Gregorian calendar is properly aligned with the solstices and equinoxes as pertains to dates associated with the Nativity cycle.

If the Nativity of our Lord and the Nativity of the forerunner are to be celebrated on the solstices--as Bede the Venerable strongly implies in his commentary on the the Forerunner's Nativity--the Gregorian calendar is about four days behind.

If the Gregorian calendar were properly aligned Annuciation would fall on the Vernal Equinox. The retreat from the earliest December sunset in the middle latitudes would coincide with December 17, the beginning of the "Great O" Antiphons sometimes called the "golden evenings".

Thomas,

I believe the reason for this is that when the Gregorian Calendar was implemented, Pope Gregory XIII deliberately chose to restore the calendar to where it was in 325 AD, the time of the Council of Nicaea, rather than opt for a complete realignment. The reason for this may have been that it meant taking only 10 days out of the calendar, instead of 14.


Peace,
Deacon Richard