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God willing, we may some day understand.

RI:

Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

I don�t understand your inclusion of concupiscence in the question. If you mean �ardent desire,� other than its usual meaning of �ardent sexual desire,� I think we will have an �ardent desire� if the idea is that our love for God�the love that Jesus spoke of as the first and greatest commandment will know no bounds and will have no distractions of any kind.

�Sin,� as I have come to understand it is an acronym for �separation (or self-centeredness or selfishness) is normal (natural or needed). We won't be separated from God in Heaven, because Heaven is not only a place but a state of being--a state of perfect communion with God for all eternity. It seems to me that it is impossible to be in perfect relationship and be separated at the same time.

I go back to idea that this board discussed in a thread about whether we believe in a real Heaven and a real Hell. Our God is described as a �Living Fire,� that is, a self-generating love that wells up in our innermost being when we are in communion with Him. He warms the heart and moves us to love as He loves. Heaven is the state of being wherein He loves us from within, deep in our hearts, where He desires to live , even now. Hell is the embrace of that Divine Love that cannot penetrate our refusal to open the door of the heart to Him. Heaven starts now and continues after physical death. That Living Fire is already in us and we only expel Him now because we still have distractions and illusory tempttations that pretend to be as good as or better than Him. There they will all be gone.

It seems to me that your question is an oxymoron from an Eastern point of view. How can we be separated from God Who is living within us perfectly in Heaven--the place and state of being? How can we be separated from Him when in that place and state of being (known as Heaven) where our whole being is on fire with love for Him and wherein we live as the dikiri carried by the bishop�two flames touching (being in a perfect communion) but still retaining their distinctiveness?

Our free will, will be, in that place, as the perfect Will of Christ�perfectly in communion with that of the Father without distractions and without the desire to be in any other way of being.

Beyond that, Luke 12:32 tells us that it "please(s) the Father to give us the Kingdom." And doesn't Jesus tell us that the Kingdom is within? When you pose the question as you do, it seems that Western concepts of putting eveything in little pigeon hole boxes is at work. "Guarantee" seems to imply that trust is lacking in the relationship because we usually ask for this type of commitment when we don't fully trust. Do we need a guarantee from One Who wants to be "father" to us and give us so much?

Bob

We all want salvation - eternal salvation

but again - the Orthodox view (from what I have read in several books) is that we should not strive or even think about it.

Living day to day in our Orthodox way (in private so that no one sees) -- is and should be our only concern

The Eastern religion we love is very much like the "Eastern" buddhist type philosophies of just living in the moment (but in Christ and with Christ as our main focus)

We live in Treoria then theosis - striving for deification.

I guess that is a working toward salvation but without the focus or worrying about salvation - rather working to help our Brothers and Sisters and all God's children.

Anyway - it's probably just semantics because I really do hope for eternal life and I want to see my loved ones and be united with them - it is my hope

I would say that worrying about sin - or focusing on also in not the Orthodox focus.

If we gaze at the Icon - Eikon of Christ - and we strive to be more and more like Him - we are human - we will sin ...

but Jesus Christ our God's judgement is always mercy - especially if we repent and try to repend and return again and again

In fact - if you really want to get a puzzled look from evangelical protestants = ask them WHY Jesus Saves ...

The answer is that we humans continually break the LAW of Moses - we've never got it right - ever - Jesus comes and saves us from the curse - from ourselves - because he forgives us and judges us always with Mercy - an answer they really don't know.

John

I was pondering this question and the replies when a thought came to me that I would like to suggest to this forum and see how the folks here feel about the veracity of what I am going to suggest.

The question was that if Adam and Eve were sinless and had free will, how could we in heaven, being also sinless and having free will, be assured of never sinning? One answer which appears to have complicated the responses is that even the wicked one at one time was without sin and then fell. So how do we keep from sinning?

I believe the answer is found in the difference between those who have gone through the journey of theosis and the state of Adam and Eve and the wicked one. Very simply put, we have something which is given to us at the time of our baptism and which grows within us towards a perfection which will never be entirely perfect (for ony God has this quality in perfection)

The Divine Nature. (2 Peter 1: 4)

It is my belief that Adam and Eve never possessed this wonderful gift that is given to us in baptism and nurtured by the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist (as food for our new life). I believe that this gift was available to them, and I think that perhaps the act of faith of rebuking the wicked one, instead of giving into him, would have been the act of faith which would have implanted it into their souls and begun the journey of theosis for them.

My reason for thinking this goes back to understanding the covenant of God and how it works. There must be a moment in each life when a ceremony of covenant making occurs between that person and God. This is an act of faith, freely chosen, in which the person chooses to unite with God (covenant is communion, or union, with God, as described by Metropolitan Zizioulas).

Adam and Eve were given a choice to make covenant with either God or the wicked one by uniting with either one. Their choice was union with the wicked one as expressed by their uniting their wills to his desire. That's all it took. They chose the fleshly nature over the divine nature. The promise was there --they missed it.

In like manner, in baptism, we unite ourselves to God. But in sin (particularly what the Romans call "mortal sin") we turn from God and make a choice to covenant to the wicked one. This is what Confession is so important. It is an act of faith by which one repents of that union with wickedness, renews the covenant and its vows to God, and then has the "meal that seals the deal" (Read Ray Sutton's book on covenant if you don't get this part -- Suzerainity covenants were always sealed with the communion of a meal. In this case, the meal and the union are one and the same in the Eucharist.)

Those who refuse to repent kill their covenant with God, make covenant and union with the wicked one, and destroy the life of the divine nature. This is profoundly serious business because there comes a point in which the divine nature is so extinguished that one can no longer hear the pleadings of the Holy Spirit to return. Perhaps the most visible example of this are the many apostate Catholic politicians, many of whom have been rebuked by their bishops personally, and either will not or no longer have the ability to hear and repent. This state of separation from God, when it goes into eternity, is called "hell."

So it is the gracious gift of the divine nature in us in eternity which will prevent us from falling as did Adam and Eve. Simply put, the divine nature does not find sin attractive at all. This is why we see the great lives like St. Seraphim of Sarov. His life is an example here in earth (in a very small way, despite the greatness we see) of how the divine nature in eternity will be totally given to God, totally desiring God, and will find nothing of interest outside of God.

Just my opinion. Commentary and questions welcome.

Sinful Ed

Ed:

I don't think I can adequately express just how helpful and nourishing I found your response. I find myself genuinely uplifted by it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts; they really are worth meditating upon.

Peace be with you...and please remember me in your prayers.

I am glad that my musings may have been inspired by God to bless you, my brother!