www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The "Other Churches"

Mariya,

Don't bother getting depressed or embarrassed over this one. It isn't, wasn't, and is unlikely to ever be considered canonical - in fact, it's not even among the Old Calendrist ecclesia whom we would normally speak of as 'non-canonical'. It's an ecclesia vagante, pure and simple.

Those among our members who are students of the so-called "Independent ('Orthodox' and 'Catholic') Movements" will be familiar with the name of Denis Garrison. If I wasn't already sure of its status, that 'ROCiA' traces it's episcopal succession through the 'Archbishop' would be proof positive of it being of that genre.

Just to add to the confusion though, as is so often the case in instances such as this, nomenclature contributes mightily to mistaken impressions.

ROCOR, never a vagante body, even when it was in communion with pretty much no other jurisdiction, has also used the alternative name ROCA (Russian Orthodox Church Abroad) and, if I remember correctly, a ROCOR splinter, for a brief time, styled itself as ROCiA. There is, as well, a 'non-canonical' jurisdictional breakaway from ROCOR titled ROAC (Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church). (And, anyone wonders why laypeople get confused?)

The body we're discussing - once it has its history up on its website - will almost assuredly: point to its origins as being in 1927; claim that its name at inception was some variation on 'Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church in North America' (HEOCACNA); and identify its proto-hierarch as having been Archbishop Aftimeos Ofiesh, progenitor of any number of such ecclesia.

All of which will be truthful to some extent, but none of which will make it or any of its myriad long-estranged siblings to be deemed canonical or even close to it.

Probably the closest thing to an actual history of it - albeit it gives credence to some of its fantasy as fiction - is at pravoslavie.us, on one of its "Orthodoxy in America" pages [pravoslavie.us].

I see that ROCiA now has an entry on Wikipedia [en.wikipedia.org] which includes this statement: "The Russian Orthodox Church in America, in its predecessor body, chose not to be a member of the Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas."

"(C)hose not to be a member"? That's pretty much a laugh, as the likelihood that the former SCOBA (now the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America) would have ever entertained it as a candidate to be represented among its ranks is more than far-fetched.

The OCA denies/ignores the existence of anything formally called ROCiA in reply to a query posted at its website Q&A [oca.org]. And neither ROCOR nor the MP (ROCiA claims a Patriarchal Ukase and Synodal Charter from the latter) are likely to embrace it anytime soon. Even THEOCACNA, itself no more canonical than ROCiA, disavows it [orthodox-catholic-church.tripod.com].

Many years,

Neil

Neil - I am very far from theology and canons and all the above nuances make no sense to me. It is precisely the fact that there are any divisions within the church to begin with and that I'm being invited to sit here and sort through what is canonical, what is not canonical, who is subject to whom and who is approved by whom, and read alphabet soups of church names, etc. etc. etc. to begin with that turns me off. I'm turned off by splits and politics in the church. Starting with those Old Believers in all their varieties - I don't like them so let me shut up before someone promptly gets offended.

I probably sound grumpy, I haven't had my coffee yet this morning, but gosh darn it. On every corner, there is yet another church with an Orthodox cross on it. This one is Orthodox this, this one is Orthodox that, some jurisdiction names are so complex I tell myself that when I get home I'll google it, then I forget to. And each of them, of course, is the one true church and the ark of salvation.

I resemble all those statements!Not really. For our bishops are valid. Hey Paul, have you ever heard ROCOR and ROCA described differently? There is a good story there.


Mariya, I am sitting down with everyone this weekend at trapeza and will give you an answer on the Icons on Monday. Again thank you for volunteering to contact them.

chadrook,

I am not lumping the Old Calendrists in with ROCiA - far from it - that's why I bothered to make distinctions between ROCiA, ROCA, and ROAC. The differences between the former and the two latter are significant.

Many years,

Neil

Mariya,

Completely understandable - I broke this thread off from the other precisely to make the point that the folks being spoken of here are neither 'Orthodox' nor 'Catholic', regardless of how they style themselves, vest themselves, furnish their churches, or what types of crosses they raise outside them.


I will only say that Old Believers are a far cry from the groups described above.


I share your frustrations - both as to not having coffee and the difficulty in sorting out the jurisdictional morass that exists around us

As to these 'churches that aren't', many would be laughable if they weren't so pitiful. One can only be thankful that many of them exist mainly on the net and, therefore, aren't likely to seduce that many innocents into their folds, But, it's still important that folks know they exist, the better to answer when folks inquire about them.

Many years,

Neil

Just email me at nj_prncss@mail.com. Please put "icons" in the subject line so I know it's from you.

The most complex jurisdiction I've seen so far has been "Western Orthodox Catholic Church of the Hispanic Mozarabic Rite" It is an adorable little church in the Lower East Side that I once walked past. I stood there long enough to memorize the full name so that I could google it later. The church is very pretty, it's called San Isidoro y San Leandro Western Orthodox Catholic Church of the Hispanic Mozarabic Rite. It's on the next block from the Mercy House on 3rd Street.

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The most complex jurisdiction I've seen so far has been "Western Orthodox Catholic Church of the Hispanic Mozarabic Rite" It is an adorable little church in the Lower East Side that I once walked past. [/quote]

Interesting that this church was at one time St Elizabeth of Hungary Slovak Roman Catholic Church where my grandparents went and my Mother was baptized. They were Slovak "Magyarones" who were Greek Catholics in Velky Saris and for whatever reason decided to become Hungarians in the US. The parish of St. Elizabeth of Hungary (Slovensky Kostol Sv. Alzbety), founded in 1891, was the first national Slovak parish for the Slovak and Hungarian Catholics of New York City and Brooklyn. The first church was built at 345 East 4th Street, and the first Mass in the new building was celebrated on August 7, 1892. This building was extant in 2012 as San Isidoro y San Leandro Orthodox Catholic Church of the Hispanic Rite. Several other churches were formed from St. Elizabeth of Hungary: St. John Nepomucene (1895, Slovak) and St. Stephen of Hungary (1901, Hungarian) in New York City, and Holy Family (1903, Slovak) in Brooklyn.