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I thought the hierarchs of the BCCA had already decided on all of your questions via the decree of promulgation in 2007: From this date forward this is the only text to be used in the churches and other places of the Byzantine Metropolitan Church Sui Iuris of Pittsburgh, U.S.A., anything else to the contrary whatsoever, even worthy of special mention, notwithstanding.
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I thought the hierarchs of the BCCA had already decided on all of your questions via the decree of promulgation in 2007: From this date forward this is the only text to be used in the churches and other places of the Byzantine Metropolitan Church Sui Iuris of Pittsburgh, U.S.A., anything else to the contrary whatsoever, even worthy of special mention, notwithstanding. Indeed to a considerable extent they have decided on the questions; hence, the very need for asking (the) questions which, at least, is not prohibited.
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Joined: May 2007
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My opinion is of no consequence; I concelebrate as my bishop instructs. Your obedience is commendable insofar as it is not a blind obedience stemming from the low esteem you have of your own opinions. 7. Do the people care? 90% will abide by what the pastor decides is the norm. The other 10% will generally find something to grumble about regardless. So, an opinion of consequence after all. This almost comes off sounding like, 90% don't care and those 10% who do are all troublemakers. Or perhaps it is that all are good sheep but only the 10% are, as the Akathist puts it so well, "rational sheep." BTW, question 1 is the first for a reason and doesn't require an "opinion." One questionable item with regard to the Ruthenian Recension is the instruction of the deacon for the catechumens to leave before the Anaphora. This would have to include unbaptized infants an non-Catholic spouses, family and visitors. This could prove to be a scandal if not instructed properly. Yes, this is a question that arises for the Recension and the RDL since we no longer adhere to the Disciplina Arcani. But, I submit, there are unfortunately much bigger questions, and they are seemingly ignored.
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One questionable item with regard to the Ruthenian Recension is the instruction of the deacon for the catechumens to leave before the Anaphora. This would have to include unbaptized infants an non-Catholic spouses, family and visitors. This could prove to be a scandal if not instructed properly. The Melkites dismiss the catechumens, and there is no scandal (leave it to the Ruthenians to think of why NOT to do something): only those adults who have formally enrolled in the catechumenate are dismissed (they are sent out for catechetical instruction during the Liturgy of the Eucharist). Unbaptized infants, infidels and heathens get to stay. This may seem anomalous (since the original purpose of dismissing the catechumens was to preserve the secrecy of the Mysteries), but now the ritual is largely turned on its head, since everybody knows what happens in the Liturgy of the Eucharist, anyway. That is, the catechumen is now singled out as an important individual who gets particular treatment. And, by dismissing the catechumens, the desire for illumination is intensified, since there is something very tangible about being allowed to remain for the entire Liturgy. Much better than simply dropping the dismissal and the acclamation of "The doors, the doors!"
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My opinion is of no consequence; I concelebrate as my bishop instructs. Your obedience is commendable insofar as it is not a blind obedience stemming from the low esteem you have of your own opinions. My opinion, as are anyone else's, just an opinion; not a command or mandate. I offer them for people to give or take; my faith commands me to choose humility over pride.
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Joined: May 2007
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My opinion is of no consequence; I concelebrate as my bishop instructs. Your obedience is commendable insofar as it is not a blind obedience stemming from the low esteem you have of your own opinions. My opinion, as are anyone else's, just an opinion; not a command or mandate. I offer them for people to give or take; my faith commands me to choose humility over pride. Well, of course, which is why I'd say there's no real need to state it, especially that "humility over pride" part. But what about question 1: 1. Have you ever experienced the "full" liturgy celebrated according to the Ruthenian Recension as give in the Slavonic typical edition or equivalent translation as the 1965 English Liturgicon? Are you aware of its form and content? Note: Answers do not require an opinion just facts.
Last edited by ajk; 02/19/13 06:04 PM.
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I thought the hierarchs of the BCCA had already decided on all of your questions via the decree of promulgation in 2007: From this date forward this is the only text to be used in the churches and other places of the Byzantine Metropolitan Church Sui Iuris of Pittsburgh, U.S.A., anything else to the contrary whatsoever, even worthy of special mention, notwithstanding. In Pittsburgh, at least, this is not enforced.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Joined: Aug 1998
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It's always encouraging to hear good news about our Church. Anecdotal evidence, however, abounds and though usually correct in its domain, can also lead to contradictions as in comparing the two examples above.
So I would be interested -- in general of the BCC faithful -- in the answer to some basic questions:
1. Have you ever experienced the "full" liturgy celebrated according to the Ruthenian Recension as give in the Slavonic typical edition on equivalent translation as the 1965 English Liturgicon? If not, would that be desirable?
2. Should we, as a Church, be celebrating according to this complete form, at least occasionally, or at least that it be available and permitted in English?
3. Is this complete form not suitable for the present condition of our Church?
4. Is the abridged form that is the RDL better suited for the present needs of the Church?
5. Should we adhere to the text of our Recension as the standard for our liturgical expression as much as possible?
6. Do we have the best translation in English of the Recension text?
7. Does/should the person in the pew even care about the above questions? 1. Yes, I have in fact served it. 2. It should be permitted. 3./4. Harder to answer. It would be longer and some pastors would fear losing parishioners if the Liturgy goes to 1.5 hours from 1 hour. 5. Yes. 6. No. 7. No.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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So I would be interested -- in general of the BCC faithful -- in the answer to some basic questions:
1. Have you ever experienced the "full" liturgy celebrated according to the Ruthenian Recension as give in the Slavonic typical edition on equivalent translation as the 1965 English Liturgicon? If not, would that be desirable?
2. Should we, as a Church, be celebrating according to this complete form, at least occasionally, or at least that it be available and permitted in English?
3. Is this complete form not suitable for the present condition of our Church?
4. Is the abridged form that is the RDL better suited for the present needs of the Church?
5. Should we adhere to the text of our Recension as the standard for our liturgical expression as much as possible?
6. Do we have the best translation in English of the Recension text?
7. Does/should the person in the pew even care about the above questions? 1. Yes. But not in a Ruthenian or any Greek Catholic Church. I've experienced it in Orthodox Churches. They all seem to come much closer to that standard. It's really beautiful. 2. Yes. 3. The complete form is certainly suitable for the present condition of our church. Our future is not in the political correctness of the RDL. It's in the prayerfulness of our own liturgy. 4. No. See above. The RDL is a hobby horse of a certain liturgist who sided with the very liberal crowd of the RCC after V2. 5. Yes. 6. No. The old translation was more accurate and easier to sing. 7. Yes. Lots of people have left because of RDL. The bishops should do a mea culpa and fix the problems that they created. The think I don't get is that the liturgy is beautiful. I mean the full form like most of the Orthodox use. It just works. Why do Ruthenian liturgists and bishops have such visceral hatred for it?
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In Pittsburgh, at least, this is not enforced. In Greater Patakistan, it was, causing great damage in the process.
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In Pittsburgh, at least, this is not enforced. In Greater Patakistan, it was, causing great damage in the process. How about now?
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,337 Likes: 24
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Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,337 Likes: 24 |
I thought the hierarchs of the BCCA had already decided on all of your questions via the decree of promulgation in 2007: From this date forward this is the only text to be used in the churches and other places of the Byzantine Metropolitan Church Sui Iuris of Pittsburgh, U.S.A., anything else to the contrary whatsoever, even worthy of special mention, notwithstanding. In Pittsburgh, at least, this is not enforced. However, many if not most parishes did implement the new book, but not necessarily the new music, with little incident.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309 Likes: 3
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Now there is no Sultan in Patakistan, and the serfs behave as they wish in their own villages, but the damage has already been done.
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Joined: Dec 2005
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Our future is not in the political correctness of the RDL. Yes. Especially disturbing, (as has been indicated many times), is the gender neutral language. See the following link for an example of gender neutrality and political correctness. http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarne...nsgender-classmates-face-punishment.html
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Joined: May 2007
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Our future is not in the political correctness of the RDL. Yes. Especially disturbing, (as has been indicated many times), is the gender neutral language. ... Whether judged insidious or just plain stupid, this is a foundational element of the RDL, as so stated by Fr. David (Petras) in these very forums, that is continually debunked by just listening to, for instance, radio and tv, liberal and conservative discourse, commercial and educational content, male and female voices. Its stated purpose and justification is a shameful fabrication that has cheapened the text and our liturgical expression. And we have it every Divine Liturgy and every Presanctified and, for the sake of uniformity, apparently, future rites in preparation (e.g.betrothal & crowning).
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