www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy Liturgical Translations Tropar said while censing the Holy Table

Let preface by saying I find the work in the Study Draft very good but this particular translation, and I say this as one who has to memorize and pray this tropar, is clumsy and unlovely. It is unbalanced and does not flow and I much prefer the current version.

Study Draft:

Bodily in the tomb,
as God with the soul in Hades,
with the thief in paradise,
and on the Throne You are Christ,
with the Father and the Spirit,
uncircumscribed,
and filling all things.

Previous and current Liturgicon:

When your body was in the tomb,
and your soul in Hades,
when your were in paradise with the thief,
You were at the same time, O Christ, as God, upon your throne with the Father and the Spirit, infinite and filling all things.

What happens when literal and lovely are at odds? Or the obscure insights of the poetic versus the clarity of the prosaic?

"To be, or not to be, that is the question" or, Should I kill myself or not? "Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;" or, Hey everyone, listen up.

What is the goal, smooth English that looses the complexity and form of the Greek/Slavonic source, or a more difficult English that conveys the form and perplexing nuance of the original?

Or a compromise?

So, for the consideration of all, a partial behind the scenes look, back to 07/27/2009, in an email exchange with John Vernoski I wrote:

A literal translation from the Greek:

At the tomb bodily,
at Hades with (the) soul as God,
at paradise with (the) thief,
and at (the) throne (you) being/are Christ, with (the) Father and (the) Spirit,
all (things) filling the uncircumscribed (one).

This follows the Greek word order; words in () are not explicit in the Greek.

I've used "at" for the Greek "en" with the dative (a legitimate meaning) to show the way it is present and functions in the Greek; it usually is rendered "in...in...in...and on the throne" (since we don't/can't say "in the throne").

The definite article that is in the last line can denote a subject, suggesting in the English rendering possibly either it starting the whole piece (sentence) or the last phrase. Thus:

The/O uncircumscribed (one) in the tomb bodily, ...

or

...the/O uncircumscribed (one) filling all (things).

The Recension Slavonic follows the Greek exactly but has additional commas before "Christ" and "uncircumscribed" denoting it seems that these are in apposition with the "you".

So it is not "you being/are Christ" but "you, Christ, being/are..." and even "You, Christ, the/O uncircumscribed (one), being/are...".

The Greek word rendered uncircumscribed here is aperigraptos (Sl:neopisannij; opisani, to write):

a- not
peri- around
graptos- written or painted


So a possible very literal rendering with some (minimum) rearrangement for English word order, and using "O" to help denote direct address:

You, O Christ, are at the tomb bodily, at Hades with the soul as God, at paradise with the thief, and at the throne with the Father and the Spirit, filling all things, O Uncircumscribed One.

This is from the Greek; the Slavonic does change some of the prepositions which may suggest a different nuance:

At/in/on (Gk en): vo...vo...v'...na throne

With (Gk meta): že...že...že...so Father


And:

... In the Greek and Slavonic the subject/verb and Christ are in the middle after the in/on phrases. That's hard to keep in the English. The presumed direct address designations can be grouped with the subject: You, Christ, Uncircumscribed (One), are in...

Grammar is ok but what I think is given up is the summation sense of the Uncircuscribed at the end. That is the phrases are structured:

1 In...,
2 in...with...,
3 in...with...
4 on throne You are, O Christ,...with Father...,
5 filling all,
6 The Uncircumscribed One

The subject/verb is really linked more closely with 4 now that I see it again. If 1-4 are specific events, 5 is a general statement, and 6 sums up 1-5 as to the nature of the person, Christ, i.e. given 1-5 then, You (Christ) are The Uncircumscribed One.

This is rough but to illustrate:

1 In the tomb bodily,
2 in Hades with the soul as God,
3 in paradise with the thief,
4 and on the throne You are, O Christ, with the Father and the Spirit,
5 filling all things,
6 O Uncircumscribed One.

The only definite article in this prayer in the Greek is with the adjective "uncircumscribed". Such a use can designate the subject and make the adjective substantive, "uncircumscribed One". If it is designating the subject then it is at the end of the sentence while English would want it at the beginning: O Uncircumscribed One...You are, O Christ...

The UGCC Synodal translation is:
You were bodily in the tomb,
in Hades with Your soul as God,
in Paradise with the thief,
and enthroned with the Father and the Spirit.
O Christ, You fill all things but are contained by none.

Father Deacon Lance,

Thanks for your post. This troparion is the one most reviewers/users have commented on.

Father Deacon Tony posted a summary of his investigation and our discussion on this. I'll only add that his research has been confirmed by several other Slavonic and Greek linguists.

As I revisit this issue, I find Father Deacon Tony's last version (just above) very appealing. I am not sure we considered it, or, if we did, why we did not go with it.

I wonder if it might be better rendered with the final "O" changed to the article "the"?

In the tomb bodily,
in Hades with the soul as God,
in paradise with the thief,
and on the throne You are, O Christ,
with the Father and the Spirit,
filling all things,
the Uncircumscribed One.

Much to consider.

John

At the present this would have my vote. It is quite literal and, I'd say, conveys the crescendo aspect of the original Greek and Slavonic, yet with sufficient Pathos [en.wikipedia.org] that I can envision "Amens!" being shouted after each line. But then, I am rather biased.

I've been discussing this the past few days with two of the project translators. Both indicate that the verb in Slavonic is simple/past perfect tense. They are both doing additional research but are recommending (for now) that the verb be rendered as "were" (of a similar form as in the opening of Psalm 103 used at Vespers). Perhaps Father Deacon Tony can take another look at the Greek?

In the tomb bodily,
in Hades with the soul as God,
in paradise with the thief,
and on the throne You were, O Christ,
with the Father and the Spirit,
filling all things,
the Uncircumscribed One.

The verb in Greek is:

ὑπῆρχες verb 2nd sg imperf ind act attic epic ionic

In context (bottom of page): link [patronagechurch.com].


ὑπῆρχες often functions as a linking verb and as imperfect indicative with the sense of an ongoing action but in the past. The Slavonic conveys this then with the perfect which usually implies completion. Conveying an ongoing action in the past in English might be were existing. With this clarification of the Greek and the Slavonic form the use of the English past, were or were existing, is indeed correct.

The Chrysostom and Basil PDF documents have been updated with the final text above.

Special thanks to Father Deacon Lance for identifying the clumsiness of the original text.