www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Church Unity Issue

As some of you may remember, I am a Coptic Orthodox Christian.

After having lived in Europe for most of my life, I can definately see a decline in Christianity - if not even a right out attack on it in most of Eastern and Western Europe.

The scandal of pedophile priests has not only shaken the church, but torn people away from it.

However, the problems in the RC have not really impacted the Coptic Orthodox Church. Our Churches outside of Egypt are usually packed, with very large youth congregations.

Having said that, I am aware of the ongoing animosity between Catholics and Orthodox. Orthodox Christians are not taught that Catholics are heretics, but are simply lacking in Orthodoxy or fullness of the Christian faith. Catholics tend to look at Orthodox Christian in the same light.

This bickering between both sides is getting annoying and is not edifying. I'm not sure if any one here is aware of the criticality of the situation - but Christianity is really in decline, and we are bickering over who is the head Patriarch in the Church? If a ship is sinking, I'd be more concerned in salvaging it than worrying about who is the better chess player between 2 rival captains.

Would you not see that Church unity ought to be the top on the agenda for the Church in selecting a new pope?

I certainly think it is. Hopefully, the cardinals think so too.

I just wish to highlight the mistakes / problems in the RC that the new pope must address. Here's a list I've seen that needs to be addressed, and it compounds to the overall reason why your numbers are in decline:

a) Priests need to get married - they cannot serve in a community and be an example if they are not living in the same conditions as other members of that community. Perhaps priests can do other part time jobs etc - and are not expected to receive "hand outs".

- Orthodoxy does not have this issue - our priests can get married.

b) I've seen priests in the RC marry (in the last minute) a Catholic woman and a man that was not even baptised Catholic. They discovered this on the wedding day and baptised him.

This is just ridiculous! I think this points just highlights why you need Orthodoxy! This is just awful. Its a compound sin: you've baptised someone who has no faith, you've married them when he doesn't believe in the sacrament of marriage also.

Your churches are empty.

c) You've told your faithful that they are only saved IF they are Catholic. I do believe Orthodox Christians are also saved as they are Apostolic and hence Sacramental. This simply creates a sense of false security (if not even animosity between the Catholics and Orthodox Christians).

So according to the logic I've witnessed in the RC, it seems that someone is better off fornicating but being catholic, than a devout Orthodox Christian.

d) Your liturgies are inconsistent:

I've been to masses where the priest has given the Holy Body only and to others where they've given the Holy Body AND Blood.

You do not think that perhaps its a tad bit arrogant, given you have 4000 convicted pedophile priests with a victim base stretching into the 10,000's that you (as Catholics) need to lighten up about who is the "head" of the Church??

I would be ashamed to even talk about these things (Papal supremacy) if my Church had these issues. And indeed, MANY catholics have left solely due to this scandal.

I've attended sermons in the RC where the message was more political than it was spiritual.

The entire spirit now of the RC is a bit of a political party - its lost its spirituality. Its tried hard to re-gain some spirituality or sense of it, and found that its adopted Charismatic theology - which I do not think does you any favours.

I do not believe talking in tongues is from the Holy Spirit, or being Slain in Spirit.

I'm totally fed up of Catholics telling me that I'm heretical - simply because Im not under the Pope of Rome.

The Pope of Rome has had his chance to lead, and has led his Church and His flock in a pit, that I think it would take a miracle to get out of.

So, please, if you are Catholic, that's great; but deep down, i'm fed up of catholics attacking Orthodox Christians telling us we are "protestants" because we are not under the hierarchy of the Bishop of Rome. How arrogant!!!

If your Bishop of Rome was any good, you would not be in this mess - in fact, I'm not sure if unity is worth it even - why on earth would we want to be tainted with the same disastrous heritage of violence, war, murder, and now pedophilia that you adopt as your spiritual history when you become catholics?

This message isn't meant to hurt you, but help you think TWICE before talking badly about any Coptic Orthodox Christian, as if somehow we are "lacking" something; or as if we are lost. Look hard at your Church, and then tell me honestly, SHOULD WE NOT THANK GOD THAT WE ARE INDEED DIVIDED FROM YOU???

Hmmm

My instant reaction to this is that you clearly think your Church is perfect.


And just how do you think that many Orthodox refer to us - and then say it to our faces ?



oh my - such loving Christian charity

Since when is a Monophysite an Orthodox Christian?

Oh, I'm sorry. I do apologise: Let me rephrase my remark:

Thanks to your Church leadership, the catholic churches are full to the brim of people.

Thanks to your leadership for hiding abuse cases and pedophile priests, the Church is going strong.

Do you not realise? Do you not realize that there were 4000 (FOUR THOUSAND) PEDOPHILE PRIESTS defrocked in the RCC? This is not a small number. The main reason why the Church is being sued is because it covered it up.

This "covering up" is a spirit stemming from the Church leadership.

I attended liturgies where RC priests have told their youth that fornication is OK and even adultery SO LONG as we cannot judge the other person. He said "if we were to tell our youth that fornication was wrong, they wouldn't come to Church".

If I swore at you, then tell me that I'm unchristian. Right now, I want to discuss facts.

But moreover, I do not want to hear any more Catholic Christian telling me that I'm heretical SIMPLY because Im not under the Bishop of Rome!!

and yes, if your bishop was any good, you would not be in this mess. Its a fact!

The entire reason why the Orthodox were happy to split was the aggressive nature by the hierarchy in the catholic church with respect to power and wealth from the onset.

Is my Church perfect - well, we do not have pedophile priests. They make mistakes, they have problems, but pedophilia?? No.

My Church is a Church of Martyrs - not crusaders. We didnt have the inquisition. We didnt burn people for heresy.

If the spirit or manner in which I was treated by Catholics in a compassionate Christian way, believe me, my attitude towards you would be similar. But I'm fed up of Catholics telling us we were heretics.

We are miaphysites.

Please increase your knowledge and get back to me.

Thanos888,

As a Coptic Orthodox priest, I find your posts offensive and rude. Our church has had its share of dark times over the centuries and yet the Lord has preserved us by His mercy...not because of our deeds.

To my Catholic brethren, please know that the great majority of us Copts do not share these sentiments in any way. I personally have a great love and respect for the Catholic tradition and am eagerly praying for unity between our churches.

In Christ,
Fr. Kyrillos

As I said, I AM FED UP of Catholic Christians telling me i'm heretical.

Perhaps they don't say this to you, Fr. Kyrillos, but I can tell you, they do not think highly of anyone Coptic.

As you can see, they think that we are monophysites.

All this coming from a Church with a sordid past like theirs, you'd think they'd be a bit more humble.

Stop digging your hole Thanos - any deeper and you are not going to be able to climb out of it.

Earlier you stated
And Fr Kyrillos finds your post unacceptable - a priest of your own Church , I might remind you.

Calling me a Monophysite is really unchristian! There you go!
That explains everything.

Fr Kyrillos - you are naive if you think these people here are respectful. THEY SEE U AS A HERETIC!!

Enough already. I'm just fed up being called a heretic by a bunch of people who are taught the only ones going to heaven are catholic, even if they go to Churches run by pedophiles.

Thanos,

I think you posted your comments to the wrong forum. Your criticism isn't justified on byzcath.org. As Eastern Catholics and Orthodox we have all heard from uninformed Roman Catholics that we are inferior. That is human nature; in fact, you have displayed that emotion in YOUR posts.

So let us move on and try our best by encouraging unity and seeing Christ in each person.

Your brother Christ,
Father Deacon Paul, Byzantine Catholic

PS Are your aware that there are Eastern Catholics who worship in the Constantinopolitan Tradition?

Well, I guess he simply had an agenda. I guess if Monophysite is unchristian then how about non-Chalcedonian? Also I doubt everyone here would consider you or Fr. Kyrillos a heretic. I couldn't make that judgement myself. Only the Orthodox Christians that use the Anathemas provided in the Synodikon could say that. So...?

Telling me that we are non chalcedonian is a fact. It doesn't mean that because we are non chalcedonian that we are monophysites. There is a difference.

As for having an agenda - my words are harsh, but I do not know what to tell you - just last year 80,000 German Catholics denied their faith and revoked their baptisms in the Church registry. These are sad facts that your church has to face up to: you are in serious decline, yet our Churches are increasing. We have no place to even pray the liturgy.

It just makes my blood boil that I'm being treated by many Catholics as a heretic simply because I am not under the bishop of Rome.

From what I've seen, even the Bishop of Rome was worried about being the Pope himself.

Finally, Fr Kyrilos is NOT living my life NOR my sufferings for me. He has his own problems. He has not faced catholics who have called him heretical, or attacked his faith. I have.

Everyone has their own battles.

Sure, I would like unity, but whilst typing this thread, I just felt that its a darn good thing we are n't actually united.

The poster in this thread who called you a monophysite is not even Catholic. Get over yourself and spew your anti-Catholic hatred somewhere else.