www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship The Other Sacramental Mysteries Matins with Holy Communion

Exactly. They are a very rich treasure, and a great blessing for our spiritual life, but people need to be catechized about what they are and why we have them, and then they need to be offered regularly so that they can be experienced.

Unfortunately, I have heard too many people say, "There's no Communion? Then why should I come?" or, "Why can't we have Communion with this service?" (I have overheard this last at an Emmanuel Moleben, a Paraklesis, and at both Matins and Vespers.)

To my way of thinking, the answer is not to change the practices and tradition to give people what you think they want, but to teach them about Eastern spirituality and liturgical practice. We need to answer their question, "Why should I come?" Rather than latinizing (or modernizing or shortening) our services so they won't "stray" to the Roman Church, we should be fully who we are, and offer good catechesis. Those whom our spirituality speaks to, will stay, and those who want a Roman style, will go to Rome. I think that's okay. Byzantine liturgy and spirituality are not for everyone, just like Roman liturgy and spirituality are not for everyone. They are both rich traditions, and the integrity of each should be respected. This hybridization stuff - for me, it's a great sorrow and a great frustration.

Sadly, you are right. But I don't believe that's a reason to stop having them. As someone who attended many services in my former parish where there were only a handful of us, I am incredibly grateful that my parish priest offered them, and I think those of who went benefited tremendously.

I did not say stop having them. On the otherhand, having the services in full and simply appending distribution of the Holy Gifts at the end, I do not find problematic. I know many will not agree but I see it as a way to preserve these services. Archimandrite Taft himself declared it was useless trying to get people who had grown accustomed to daily Communion to give it up.

While I appreciate the concerns being expressed, I'll post again, with editing, to see if someone can answer these questions I asked.

Well, considering the secularism of today's society, a lot of people, especially younger people, only know of the Divine Liturgy, and to receive the body and blood, and nothing more. We older ones do believe in the Prayers of the Hours, and the need for deeper spirituality that Matins, Vespers, Complines, Royal Hours, etc... provide. This is something that should be taught to our youth, but alas, it seems like they're brought up in just the ordinary "attend Divine Liturgy" and go on with the rest of the week type of morality anymore... *Sigh*

1. First I've heard of it.

2. I would say not widespread, first I heard of it. It is not uncommon among the Orthodox.

3. Matins with Holy Communion-American, daytime Presanctified-don't know

1. The Eparchy of Phoenix is the only place I've encountered it, and it was specifically being done for Lent, not the rest of the year. I don't know how many parishes in the eparchy were doing it. I know of two.

2.All the parishes I've been to have had Presanctified in the early evening, 6 or 7 pm.

Fr. Deacon,

Sorry for the lack of clarity in my post. I didn't think you were saying we should stop having them, but as I re-read my post now, I can see how it sounded like that. I meant it as a general response to people who say it's not worth having them because so few people come.

Add the more liturgically minded Lutheran parishes to the list of "having only a handful attend".

I am thankful for the handful, the "little flock of pure saints in the Gospel" (to borrow Luther's phrase) who do attend...and when I make a proportionate comparison with Catholic and Orthodox parishes with much higher Sunday attendance I realize that we are doing very well--exceedingly well. But I still wish that there were more who desire deeper walk with our Lord.

"Nobody comes" is not a good reason for a priest not to offer at a very minimum daily Vespers, Saturday Vespers and Sunday morning Orthros, in addition to the Divine Liturgy. In fact, it's kind of his job to do that. Perhaps if he did it regularly, and explained to the people why it was so important, a few would come, and then more would follow.

+1.

I haven't been to other ruthenian parish sites, but I do find Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Church, in San Diego, an example of what a Ruthenian parish can be, and should.

It may not be. But when nobody comes it is easy to get discouraged. Couple that with other duties, age, health, multiple parishes, etc.

Not to mention the consistently warm weather in San Diego is a bonus, unlike places where I live, where it can be 50 degrees and sunny one Sunday, and 28 degrees and a blizzard the next. That would affect attendance a bit (of course, there's legitimate reason for that). I'm tellin' ya, if I could afford to move to San Diego, I would've gladly been a parishioner of Holy Angels a long time ago. But now I'm stuck with Holy Spirit Byzantine Catholic Church, St. Josaphat UGCC Cathedral and St. John the Baptist Byzantine Catholic Cathedral.

With all these invented liturgical services the bishops send a clear message that authentic liturgy is neither good for the church nor wanted by the church. Shame on them.

Agreed. This would make St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil the Great, and St. Gregory the Theologian roll over in their graves to see their works of the Divine Liturgy "reinventing the wheel" like this. I don't think the founders and benefactors of the Early Church would really be too thrilled with what today's Bishops and Metropolitan Archbishops, etc... are doing.