www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Choral versus Congregational Singing

In a recent active thread in the Revised Divine Liturgy Forum, a debate started weighing the merits and usuage of choral versus congregational singing for the Divine Services. While this has nothing to do with the proposed revisions, it seem to strike an interest in our posters.

What are the merits of singing responses in your communities, congregational or choral and how do you find it adds or detracts from the liturgical life of your parish? Please remember that none of the proposed revisions make any reference to this, and this would make a good sampling of the differences in traditions. I am posting it here instead of The Kliros Forum so that all posters not just clergy and cantors may participate. The topic is not exclusive to members of the Ruthenian Church, but to all liturgical traditions.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

The children's facility that I serve has a chapel that serves the children and local residents from the community on a regular basis liturgically. We have a psalti/cantor that leads the children in the responses, but for the most part the children sing the responses. The responses are sung in English and Greek. They may not know what the tones are, but they are on key. I find that it involves all the children in the Divine Services (we offer vespers and paraclesis during each week night) and keeps their attention focused on the services. I have found that when I cover on rare occasion another parish, if the parish follows the similar situation, the congregation is more focused and pariticipates than if a choir is singing. Just my personal observation.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I suppose that each have their merits and each have their advocates. If I grew up in a choral church, I'd prefer choral. If I grew up in a congregational singing church I'd prefer congregational singing. However, I did grow up in a choral RCC and now prefer my BCC congregational chanting.

Why not both? I am thinking of Feast days back in the monastery, when not only left and right clirosi were busy at it, the whole congregation would sing right along! Never underestimate the power of yayas and babyshki when it comes to matters liturgic! I think the problem comes in when choirs move into the "synodal style" singing, the fancy stuff from Chesnokoff, Tchakovsky and so forth. What's wrong with just the plain old ocmoglasnik or prostopenije? I am sitting here at my computer, 20 years later, I can still hear the Feast of Pentecost 1984, the Monastery's Feast day. Man, they must of heard us in Syracuse! The sound of 400+ voices, clerical, monastic and lay, singing "Tsariu Nevbesnie"!

Alexandr

As a side note, one of the things that I have noticed in both Russia and the Ukraine, when there is a choir utilized, the deacon will still lead the entire congregation in singing the Creed in plain chant. I have noticed this from the smallest backwater church, to the Kazanskaya Cathederal in Red Square. Most of the Churches had large placards with the creed printed in Russian script, large enough for everybody present to read from. It was interesting to see the deacon turn, face the people, and physically direct them in the singing. I believe that it is part of reeducating the faithful after 70+ years of communist control.

Alexandr

Alexandr,

I noticed this a couple years back was I was in Minsk Belarus and serving at the Cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul. The protodeacon also lead the congregation in chanting the responses to the Divine Liturgy. Your observation may be on target regarding that.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Aleksandr,
I noticed the same thing on any number of occasions at, for example, Synod Cathedral in New York, fifty years ago and since then. The practice of the deacon directing the congregation in the singing of the Creed (and sometimes the Lord's Prayer and one or two other things) is not an innovation.

Fr. Serge

I sang in a parish choir for seven years as well as a men's chorus. It is not what one is used to. I apologize if I somehow conveyed that my little liturgical world doesn't go beyond my parish doors. It is whether "liturgy" is really the work of the people.

Yes, I am moved by pretty choir music. I sang Rachmaninmov, Tsaikovsky, etc. Very pretty and moving. It affects one's feelings and mood quite well.

I can also see how one's clerical job can become very boring if one has to listen to nasal singing, off key voices, and soprano wannabees. Some clergy even hire cantors and choirs to sing for them at their Masses. Its a wonderful show.

Again, "silent" Anaphoras, choirs who "take" the part of the people, and other "Ruthenian" traditions only keep people voting with their feet. Liturgy, whatever it really means, is not for them. For too long, it has been hijacked by the experts.

What is distracting, dear Father, is the fact that you have to put up with a congregation doing ITS job. This is very sad. The fact that a cleric can honestly state that he is distracted by the people he is there to serve. Not just the expert chorus, but the little people who just get in the way.

Cheers to the Publicans!!!

Joe

Dear Joe,

For the record, I didn't say that I was distracted by congregational singing. Far from it!

What I tried to say, (perhaps I was unclear) was that I can imagine, for someone who was used to a choir (for example who grew up in a 'choir' church and only knew that tradition), that they might find it very distracting (even an imposition) to attend Liturgy in a Church with congregational singing.

But that is not my experience at all, and I am sorry if I gave that impression.

the unworthy,
Elias

Joe, might I suggest that if you look to the few parishes that are working to pray the fullness of the Ruthenian recension you will find that they are full, while the people are walking from those parishes that are following the recommendations of the �experts� who seek to change our liturgy according to their own personal taste? But we�ve discussed this and you�ve made clear that your issues with the Church are not really those of liturgy.

Joe, might I suggest that you learn something about what you are speaking about instead of just opening your mouth to change feet? Please consider listening to any of the Divine Services from Great and Holy Week at this link (for which the pastor Hieromonk Elias was the principle celebrant) and you will see that your accusation is a false one. In the past nine years the parish in Aliquippa went from one where only a few sang to one where almost everyone sings.

I hope you are honest enough to eat crow on this one and apologize to Hieromonk Elias for your false accusation.

John, Administrator

Gentlemen,

Once again we seem to be raising a stink over nothing. This forum does not convey body language worth a darn, so we have to be very careful when we respond to a post that we have made two, three or even more efforts to understand what the other poster has said. Even then, rather than go on the attack please consider seeking clarification rather than assuming what may not be in evidence.

I'm loath to close a thread, but this one is getting very close -- especially when we insult clergy (maybe it's because I am one, but I think it's because of what St. Ignatius of Antioch says with regard to how one is to treat clergy).

Fr. Deacon Edward

Hi,

I was told by several priests that having the choir sing and the congregation not sing is truly a latination. And they said that having the congregation sing along with the choir is truly Byzantine way.

Has anyone heard of that before?

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

PS, I prefer to sing along with the Choir. And because I'm so self concious about my voice, I just kind of whisper songs or mouthing words.

I attended vespers at an OCA parish. A choir was singing as well as the congregation, but the choir was much more prominent.

Reverend Father,
Bless,

We are fortunate to have a fine men�s chorus. One liturgy a month they lead the responses.

This way, the people realize that the bulk of the time the faithful will chant the responses and that on occasions, they will benefit from the rich tones of the chorus. However, even when the chorus participates, we use the term �lead the responses�. This way, the faithful should not just sit back and listen to the �concert�. They too are encouraged to sing with the chorus.

The chorus members give of their free time to practice weekly, to sing at nursing homes for our infirmed, and to provide the responses for celebrations of the rite of marriage. Please keep these men and all others who give of their time and talents to enrich our liturgies in your prayers.

Deacon El