www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Coptic Evangelism to Muslims

Any thoughts on Fr. Boutros' ministry to Muslims, especially imams:
http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2013/04/13/more-imams-convert-to-christ/

Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

I'd like to see the episodes this priest has done for TV posted online. Better yet, I'd like to see EWTN to broadcast them as a regular program with the newest ones being broadcast within days of taping and the older ones archived and broadcast regularly. And I don't mean at some odd hour like 2 a.m.; I mean during prime time in the evening.

People need to know this stuff so that the politically correct garbage that comes from our multicultural propaganda on TV and our educational establishment can be met with the truth. I wonder if this is part of the curriculum about Islam being taught in Wisconsin that was discussed online recently. NOT!!

Bob

I think it is telling that it come from a site that does not consider the Coptic Church to be Orthodox, In fact the Eastern Orthodox church (es) hold the Oriental Churches to be in schism and heresy and continue to refer to them derisively as "monophysites". So, I find it odd that the website runs a story about a monk helping imams convert to a church it views as graceless.

It seems to me that in facing the reality of Islam it makes little difference whether we are Chalcedonian or Non-Chalacedonian. Not that that has no meaning. However, in the big picture, we have a common enemy that the West seems blind to realize, given our focus on "diversity" and "multi-culturalism" that seems to equate everything as equal.

Islam is a politcal and religious system that seeks to force a totalitarian system of government, both civil and religious, on the whole world (the word itself means "submission"). It seems to me that we need to understand the reality we face. We seem to be given a false picture when we don't understand the whole of what this system is all about. And this priest has delved into the whole picture in order to save souls. His contribution to all of us is that he's also opened the door to a full understanding of what this thing is that we all face and ignore to our peril.

bob

[quote=eamon]I think it is telling that it come from a site that does not consider the Coptic Church to be Orthodox, In fact the Eastern Orthodox church (es) hold the Oriental Churches to be in schism and heresy and continue to refer to them derisively as "monophysites". So, I find it odd that the website runs a story about a monk helping imams convert to a church it views as graceless. [/quote]

That's a very good and valid point. Indeed, many EO sites do not consider us "orthodox", and as you say, they attack us still by calling us "monophysites".

Fr Zakaria isn't really converting Imams to Orthodoxy (by the way) - he is converting them to Christianity - and i think the main branch of that would be "protestantism" - which literally against his own Church.

But as a Coptic Christian, we are not really raised to disrespect other denominations. We are generally encouraged to have a deep and personal relationship with Christ.

The division with the EO and the OO is total idiocy - but we do not even view them as heretical. Their continued on us as being heretical is merely a mask which they seem to put on rather than admit they wronged us. Its easier to accuse than say "sorry, we falsely accused you".

We have a tremendous amount of respect for the EO, by the way. Our priests often travel to Greece and visit the grotto of St John and the other saints, and each time, they are cast out as "heretics" by some Greek priest.

My only problem is that whilst we are all bickering about who is right and who is wrong, and who is heretical and who is living in the fullness of the "true" faith, God's work isn't getting done. We are being attacked on one side by aggressive secularist movements who, like the islamic extremists, have hijacked the revolution in the Middle East for own agendas, likewise, the atheists, the liberals the other extremists have hijacked the fairness in a secular regime for their own agendas also. I was a Radio debate not long ago where I defended the Church on its stance against Same Sex Marriage. The presenter and all his panel of hosts were dying to see the Church "shut shop" on the grounds of discrimination against gays.

You have a very weak Christian Culture in Europe and North America. Look at the rate of abortions, rapes, crimes etc in countries where people consider themselves 80% Christian. This does not add up.

On top of this, you have a growing and solid islamisation of the west and of the Americas.

Whilst ALL this is going on, the Church that has produced living saints like Fr Zakaria boutros, and others, is being attacked by Catholics (Latin Rite & Traditionalists), Eastern Orthodox Christians, and Protestants.

This is the best we can offer to God, as Christians?

When we hear the voice of the master saying :"What have you done with my talents" - which church will say :"Lord, I may not have brought anyone to be Catholic, but I sure as hell stopped them from being a heretical Coptic Christian".

This is how we use our talents? To attack other Churches, and apostolic ones at that!

I met one protestant fellow near where I live by chance. His "mandate" is to evangelise the Holy Gospel and to help people escape Catholicism.
I asked him :"Brother, why are you doing this?"
He said "Because they worship St Mary, and she's dead".
"But she's not dead, and they do NOT worship her" - why don't you concentrate on saving those who do not even KNOW the Lord?", i asked.

He interjected and said ".. Because they are not living in truth and we need to get them out of this cult".

I wanted to throw water on this guy. I was so furious.

Why doesn't he focus on making his own family Christian, or country. I'm astonished by all this self-righteousness.

At least Fr. Zakaria boutros has the guts to evangelize muslims and not to Catholics, Protestants or Eastern Orthodox Christians.

It says in the Bible that no one can say that Christ is Lord, unless its through the Holy Spirit. So, all these Christian denominations MUST have obviously some work of the Holy Spirit working in them for them to testify this which is a great improvement from Islam.

Yet, protestants are hell bent on making sure that priesthood is vanished, confession is abolished, and icons are destroyed.

I really hope Pope Francis sees this mess and starts to build bridges - however, building bridges will only be done through education.

I think Father does a great job. However, they won't run it on EWTN. The decision was made years ago, so it will be kept safe in other parts of the world. That is why Fr. Pacwa's work is not brought up on EWTN. Anything he does in relation to Islam, the books, talks, whatever is not connected to the network for that reason.

Now, whether that was a good decision or not, it is the way it is. Sort of like our dear deacon, his writings are never done in reference to his title or the church.

Fr. Boutrus is an amazing priest with a very high price on his head. God's grace is amazing in him!

Pani Rose:

If EWTN won't run this type of information and won't run Father Mitch Pacwa's work on Islam, the I'd have to ask what good are they doing now that Mother Angelica is out of the picture. Once they got her out of the way, they've become another bland outlet for the same multicultural pap one gets from the mainstream media.

Bob

I really thought they would have done so when she was connected. Now things changed as to who was in charge while she was still active. I don't remember the details exactly, but it was a conflict with the bishops, she turned control over to the board. I can poke around and ask questions, but I think the decision to not do so was made while she was active.

In my mind someplace, there were threats. EWTN is surrounded by a pretty busy neighborhood. So I guess someone decided safe was better. Until the last few years, I lived five minutes away from there.

Sorry, I didnt mean to change this topic to a unity issue. But its true, the website that seems to be praising Fr Zakaria's efforts is against his Church.

I think that it is unwise for a network to promote this because his allegations are not necessarily consistently true of all Muslims. It would be a slap in the face to peaceful Muslims who do not hold or teach or practice the faith as do some of the more radical sects.

I find that it is not so easy to use these shock tactics to discredit Islam, because they are not universally followed or taught. A lot of his sources are from texts outside of the Koran. And a lot of Muslims answer these claims of the harshness of certain sects of Islam by saying that if certain hadiths contradict the Koran that they are not to be followed. So the problem is somewhat like what Protestant churches face. There is disagreement about which hadiths or fatwas are legitimate and trustworthy and binding.

I do not deny that there are many acts of persecution against Christians in some Islamic regions. I do not deny that many branches of Islam do seem to practice execution for the crime of conversion. (or that conversion in general is not allowed in the religion). And there are certainly other harsh penalties and practices and rights of women issues that are problematic in many areas.

But the problem is, that this may not necessarily mean that this is what the religion is meant to be or to teach or what most Muslims actually follow.
I have found a website that deals with some of the more radical claims made by Fr. Zakaria and he refutes many of them.

My point is not to defend Islam. I am all for finding good ways to reach out to them and to evangelize and support those who want to convert. I am all for exposing the actual actions and events that are horrible. But when trying to discredit a religion, I think we should have the highest standards of refuting it either by
A) showing how our religion is more true, or that Jesus is who we claim him to be.

or

B) refuting elements of the religion that are actually considered to be the unquestionable universally held aspects of the religion. This is difficult with Islam with so much variety out there. But this is the same standard with which I want anti-Catholic discussions to be held. I would want he discussion to stay on topics that we actually hold to, and not any possible thing that happened in the name of Catholicism or was written (or practiced) by one Catholic scholar or believed at some point. Also, I think it is dangerous to share half truths. If people really want to discuss with a Muslim, they should learn more carefully what it is that they are arguing with instead of repeating the most shocking things that they can find. Otherwise they may end the discussion prematurely or not make our perspective seem so solid.

None of this is to say that I do not respect the work of this man and his courage, and I do not doubt the danger of it either. I hope that he will do all he can on this earth to serve the Church and help others to find truth.