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Dec 29th, 2019
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It's a moot point now. He's left the Melkite Eparchy and is now with the UAOC-Canonical as a married bishop. The UAOCC has married bishops? That is new to me. What about the UAOC "proper"?
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Where is Peter Anson ("Bishops At Large") when we need him?
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Maybe he is here: deep end [ geocities.ws]
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Actually, the problem with Jon Ryner and his Avalonians is that they are so far off the map that the ACCE is 'just another Catholic parish' by comparison. Ryner and company do not represent a serious concern to the Apostolic Churches. Other than a very small segment of "Catholic New Agers', I strongly suspect that the only congregants you'd find (had the Avalonians any stone and mortar temples) would be role-playing gamers. Even the Liberal Catholic Churches, and most of the assorted ecclesiae that they have birthed, would consider it a 'fringe' body. The ACCE, by comparison, looks too much like mainstream Catholicism to be dismissed easily. It will embrace and absorb some folks - maybe some who would otherwise be unchurched and will, as a result come to know and accept Christ and, in that respect, serve a spiritual good. However, as I said earlier, these entities serve to add confusion and further foster disunity. Unfortunately, they also demonstrate - on their own small scale - a down-to-earth form of religious piety that is not as often seen these days in parishes of the Apostolic Churches. Don't kid yourself, that soup kitchen is a powerful tool for evangelization - and a bishop ladling soup (when it's not for a Thanksgiving photo op) is a powerful visual witness to evangelization. The way to a man's heart may be through his stomach; but, it can also be a way to his soul. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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One of these guys who has done this in the past is now in the Melkite Church after leaving a vagante Ukrainian jurisdiction. I'm trying to get him booted. The body he came from was a vagante jurisdiction. He also spent time in prison in 1995-1997 for felony forgery/fraud. He is married (which in itself is not a problem) but he also for a number of years presented himself as an Orthodox bishop even though he's married. It's a moot point now. He's left the Melkite Eparchy and is now with the UAOC-Canonical as a married bishop. Tom: I'm new here, and wanted to send you a private message, but I guess I haven't been around long enough for the system to allow that. Anyway, I attend the Melkite parish where the individual you refer to was wanting to serve. I had my suspicions about him from the beginning, but am curious about how you knew about him. I didn't do any Googling of his name till after he'd left (under suspect circumstances), and was amazed by what I found. I'd like to take this topic off-list, so if you're able to send me a PM, please do so. Thanks. Christ is risen! AJ I found out about this man through some sites on "independent" "Orthodox" clergy. I also saw the newspaper articles of him going to prison for forgery. I also know that this man has been expelled from other vagante jurisdictions for reasons. So, I won't say any more for now. But we both know who we're talking about. I can't PM you either.... I guess I'm too new. Tom Tom: Just when we thought it was safe, he is back. He recently got hold of our pastor and asked if he could attend Divine Liturgy at our church again. Our pastor told him that under no circumstances could he stand in the Holy Place, but he wasn't sure whether he could forbid another Christian (even a vagante) from simply attending Liturgy. I really wish he would just leave us alone! AJ
Last edited by Irish Melkite; 08/19/11 01:33 AM.
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. . . he wasn't sure whether he could forbid another Christian (even a vagante) from simply attending Liturgy. What does your bishop say? Seems to me that's a question for him. If someone who causes or can cuase a public scandal comes on the scene, it seems to me it's the bishop's responsibility to take some stand. Bob
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. . . he wasn't sure whether he could forbid another Christian (even a vagante) from simply attending Liturgy. What does your bishop say? Seems to me that's a question for him. If someone who causes or can cuase a public scandal comes on the scene, it seems to me it's the bishop's responsibility to take some stand. Bob That's part of the problem. We don't officially have one till Bp. Nicholas (Samra) is enthroned next week. Our pastor is going to the enthronement on Tuesday, so he'll hopefully receive instructions on how to proceed then. AJ
Last edited by Irish Melkite; 08/19/11 01:33 AM.
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So the now UOAC-"canonical" married "bishop" wants to worship at the Melkite parish without receiving the Holy Mysteries and without standing where he doesn't belong to receive some kind of adulation?
I say forbid him from trespassing on the property. He has no access to the Mysteries as an excommunicant, and no one has a right to corrupt and cause scandal. He will probably use the opportunity as a photo-op or to try to attract followers to his next venture. Why support that?
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Folks, let's exercise some charity.
We do not know the mind, heart, or soul of this individual (and, while we're at it, let's dispense with applying derogatory characterizations to him). We have no knowledge of why he asked what he did (and please note that he did ask).
Some prayers for him might be more in order than speculation and judgemental pronouncements on a matter that is, to use the vernacular, 'beyond our pay grade'.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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The UAOCC has married bishops? That is new to me. What about the UAOC "proper"?
The UAOC "proper" under Metropolitan +Mefodiy does not have married bishops. The "UAOC-Canonical" is a misleading name, is not considered "canonical" by any jurisdictions I know of, and has no formal connection with the UAOC under +Mefodiy.
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This thread has been incredibly useful to me in doing research on the Catholic Church of the East. Thank you Neil (Irish Melkite), JBenedict, Bob (theophan), and others. I'm still gathering information, but as for proof to Eamon that the Arabic Catholic Church under Ramzi is not in communion with the Assyrian Church of the East, I found what may be a Statement of Clarification by the Assyrian Church of the East.
Unfortunately, the link doesn't work: http://news.assyrianchurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/20110627statement-of-clarification.pdf
I found the link above on this search engine: http://www.sputtr.com/musallam?page=2
It is the last link on that page. It shows the beginning of the text on the statement.
Despite the fact that the link doesn't work, I found an image of the Statement: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GoxaunqHHqI/TrzWcaTTFgI/AAAAAAAABBw/8uJAwmc--CY/s640/20110627statement-of-clarification.jpg
It was located on this blog: http://thepinoycatholic.blogspot.com/2011/11/all-about-mark-bunag-again.html
In the blog post, he indicated that a "Concerned Catholic" sent him the image of the Statement. I e-mailed the blog owner for more information or for a link from the Assyrian Church's website to verify the image is authentic but he has yet to reply.
Still, this shows it might not be a crazy idea to call them up to ask if they can verify this is indeed a legit statement from them.
God Bless~!
- Jonathan
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Jonathon,
I see no reason to doubt the validity of the statement - Ramzi Mullalah is not recorded among the hierarchy of the Assyrian Church, the date is right as regards a Synod meeting, Mar Awa Royel is the Assyrian Bishop of the Western US, and the signature matches his on other documents.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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The UAOCC has married bishops? That is new to me. What about the UAOC "proper"?
The UAOC "proper" under Metropolitan +Mefodiy does not have married bishops. The "UAOC-Canonical" is a misleading name, is not considered "canonical" by any jurisdictions I know of, and has no formal connection with the UAOC under +Mefodiy. I'm not sure if that says anything, as "The UAOC "proper" under Metropolitan +Mefodiy" "is not considered "canonical" by any jurisdictions" either. But yes, accuracy in what is wrong in the "UAOC-Canonical" and what is wrong in the "UAOC" is to be desired.
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