www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Western Catholic - Eastern Soul

Bro Mike,

It will be tied 3-boys 3-girls, pretty good 7 card stud hand eh ?

james

And to add to some of the posts from page two, many orthodox and traditional Catholics prefer the Western Church to the Eastern Churches (shocker for many, I know), and through studying East and West, I've found myself to be much more Western in spirituality...but I still *love* the East. I think this is how many Westerners feel about the East, and probably vice versa.

Logos Teen

Dear Anhelyna,

So you live in Scotland? Neat. I would guess there are no Byzantine Catholic churches there. That has to be tough, having your heart in the East but being forced to remain in the West. Perhaps God wants you in the Roman church for a reason right now, and maybe later things will change.

I don't hate the Roman church by any means-- Lord knows we're not perfect either. I just tend to be critical. Criticism isn't a bad thing-- when someone's doing something stupid or wrong, they SHOULD be criticized-- especially when it's Christ's own Church.

But the Roman Catholic Church is where I was baptized, where I first learned about Jesus, where I was Chrismated, and where I received my first Eucharist. I try to remind myself of that whenever I catch myself being "anti-Roman." :-)

God bless,

Karen

The Latin Church has a great liturgical patrimony despite the past 40 or so years. Just keep in mind that the way it is today in some parishes is not how it always was.

The traditional Roman liturgy is alive and well in many places around the country.

In Iesu et Maria,
Justin

Deacon Ed,

I think you missed the point of my comment to John... which was that while I don't care for a lot of things Roman (especially the way they have treated and continue to treat Byzantines), I am trying to be more charitable in my attitude towards the RC church. As I said in my above post, I have the Roman church to thank for my faith in the first place.

I would hope that "bashing" is not synonomous with "any criticism whatsoever" in your lexicon.

God bless,

Karen

Hi John,

Glory forever!

Wow, your journey's sounding more and more like mine... it's not that I was running from something... the Byzantine Rite just satisfies a spiritual need in me that the Latin Rite just wasn't meeting. Even if they went back to the Tridetine Mass in Latin, with all the beauty and glory it had, I'd STILL be Byzantine.

There are sacrifices one has to make when they become Byzantine Rite Catholics... there aren't very many of us, and consequently it's hard to find BC churches. If you live within an hour's drive on one, you're very lucky. If you're like me, with not just one, but TWO BC churches within a 45 minute drive, you're REALLY fortunate. So there's a sense of isolation and being "out of the loop" that you'll probably experience.

But if this happens, remember that following Christ and the path He has laid out for us is not going to be easy. In fact, if it is, and you face no adversity or opposition in your spiritual journey, it surely means that you're doing something wrong.

God bless,

Karen

A friend of mine expressed concern that I would become anti-Western, like so many Byzantines he had encountered in online forums. I responded that there is little chance of that in one who has walked the streets of Assisi, visited thousand-year old monasteries and ancient European hermitages. And there is much in even the modern-day Roman churches that I like: the season of Advent, and its readings, for example. I hope we make it clear to our new friend that being drawn Eastward should not be a negative thing and that it does not mean hostility to the West.
I am most blessed living in northeast Ohio; within a half hour drive there are two Ruthenian churches, one Ukranian, one Melkite, one Maronite and one Romanian. Within an hour drive I can't count the Eastern churches,

Dear Karen,

I can identify with a lot of your feelings. As I have noted in other posts, when I truly discovered the Eastern Church, it was a coming home for me.

I find it very difficult to attend even a Tridentine Mass now, let alone the music to be found at the Novus Ordo. I've gotten so used to the chanting and the whole drama of the Byzantine Liturgy, that I find the silence at the Tridentine Mass stifling and oppressive. I was attending a Tridentine Mass almost every week when I discovered the East.

I can see the wisdom of Pope Pius XII (?) when he wanted to institute the dialogue Mass. I know that when one of the leaders of the Latin Mass community brought up the issue of instituting the dialogue Mass, he was shut down quick and was told by many that they would leave if any such action was taken. I feel for my friend.

This is my experience and for me there is no turning back. I thank God for His great kindness to me.

Terry

Terry,

I think the reason so many traditional Latin Catholics are opposed to the "dialogue" is because it leads to the mentality that one must make the responses, or else he isn't really participating. Pope Pius XII also said, I believe, that participation in the Holy Sacrifice is primarily internal and spiritual.

I don't have a problem with a dialogue Mass as long as the congregation desires it, and realizes that their participation isn't somehow being "heightened."

Logos Teen

Dear Terry,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I've never actually BEEN to a Tridentine Mass, so I can't really comment on that aspect. At least it's beautiful and reverent and gives glory to God. To be fair, some Novus Ordo Masses do also.. like the Mass on EWTN.

But you've touched on one of the things I LOVE about the Byzantine liturgy... it's ironic that when I'm at a Novus Ordo Mass, which is supposed to foster "active participation" of the congregation, I feel very much like a spectator at a performance-- a very dull and secular performance-- especially when the seating is in the round. I feel very much that I am "actively participating" at a Byzantine liturgy, with the beautiful chanting and litanies of "Lord have mercy!" I find it impossible to be bored at divine liturgy, probably because it envelops all of your senses. So much beauty to see, tones to chant/listen to, perfume of incense...

God bless,

Karen

Karen,

I didn't "miss the point" at all. I took exception to bashing the Latin Church -- and, no, what you wrote was not "criticism" at all, it was bashing.

Is there a place for criticism? Possibly, if it is really criticism. However, I submit that the Romans have treated us no worse than the Orthodox. Yet, we are called to build up the Kingdom, not to tear down our brothers and sisters in faith.

Edward, deacon, sinner and moderator

Dear Logos Teen,

Thank you for your response, but my first years were under the Tridentine Mass, the Novus Ordo did not come until after I left the Church. I remember how it was and what I was taught.

I believe that Pope Pius was emphasizing that the Mass was to be a community action, that the laity had an active role to play as well. I spent a good many hours in the prayer books or saying the Rosary during Mass, or looking at the stained glass windows or the statues and all that was good, but I was not actively involved with the liturgy. I was only doing what I was taught. The bells were there to tell when the important things were happening.

This is not a knock on those who do this, because I did it as well. What was needed and is needed today is instruction and understanding about what true worship and participation in the liturgy is.

If we look to Scripture and the book of Revelation, we see that worship is participatory. Many there saying their Rosaries or reading from the prayer books are participating as much as they have been taught to understand, but there is so much more to be had from the Lord.

I have many friends among those who attend the Tridentine Mass who oppose any idea of a dialogue Mass or sung Mass in which they would be expected to take an active part. It's not their fault or do I find blame in them, this is how they were taught.

I do agree that it cannot be imposed upon them but I do believe that instruction about worship needs to be provided. It is only by this and the opening of the heart to the Spirit that this can be changed.

I was perfectly happy sitting there quietly following along in my Missal until I met the East and read Scott Hahn's book on the Lamb's Supper.
It is this that I wish my fellow Catholics to see and understand. If they did, they would get so much more out of Mass because they would truly be lifting their hearts up unto the Lord, in the fullest possible way.

Boy that brings me back!

Yep, that's just how it was, too. Everyone seemed to be worshiping alone. It was no wonder we kids would say "we could do this at home" and then we'd get the threats of hellfire.

Two positive things came out of VII. Encouragement of the use of the Divine Office by laypeople (an often overlooked blessing) and increased attention by the laity in the mass.

In the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom you get that attention from the laity. Where I go everybody pays close attention, bowing, crossing themselves, singing, praying, more crossing, more praying, more bowing...

Now if we could just do something about those pews!

Dear Fr. Deacon Ed,

I don't think I have said anything on this board re the Roman Church that could be construed as "bashing", unless your definition of bashing really is "any negative references/criticism whatsoever." But perhaps I have... if I have really been unfair to the Roman Church here, I sincerely apologize and will take it back.

And you're right about the Romans treating the Byzantines no worse than the Orthodox-- we get it from both sides-- though this doesn't excuse it. We're in communion with Rome, after all, and we should expect better treatment from our own Church.

Now I'm perfectly willing to not to bring up any history or facts that put the Roman Church in a bad light, or make any negative references at all, so I won't be accused of "bashing" my own church (I'm technically still Roman).

I certainly agree that we should not tear down our brethren in the Faith.

God bless,

Karen

Posted by FrDeaconED:

"Is there a place for criticism? Possibly, if it is really criticism. However, I submit that the Romans have treated us no worse than the Orthodox. Yet, we are called to build up the Kingdom, not to tear down our brothers and sisters in faith.

Edward, deacon, sinner and moderator"

Thank you for your concern that the Latin Church and her liturgy be treated with respect in discussions on the Forum.

I've read this thread and have some thoughts and questions based on it. I hope that you'll bear with me and help me understand.

I do think that there is a place for critical discussion. There is sometimes a failure to distinguish what is appropriate criticism and that is bashing. It is a fine line at times.

It seems to me that criticism is looking at something to find its strengths and weaknesses in order to make it stronger and even better.

Bashing does something similar in that it looks at something but it focuses on the weaknesses. It finds fault and emphasizes it and uses it to denigrate the thing being looked at. It is usually a personal judgement based on personal preference.

I think that one can observe that he or she does not like some of the music used during the Liturgy in a particular parish or the style of chant that is proper to a Particular Church. He or she can present musical theory or theological speculation to support his or her opinion and suggest how to correct the difficulty.

For example, one can say that he or she does not believe that singing the Star Spangled Banner as a communion hymn on the Fourth of July is an appropriate activity at Mass. It distracts one from concentrating on the One Who is entering under our roof.

That is a far cry from saying that the Liturgy as a whole where the national anthem was so sung is or has become something unworthy or intollerable.

The former is criticism, I think, and the latter is bashing.

The question that I have is: why would a person disturbed even by a pattern of such musical problems bring even constructive criticism about that to this Forum and make it a foucs? Wouldn't the proper forum be the parish council or pastors office? If there is an unresolved pattern of such problems, wouldn't the proper forum be the bishop's office?

I agree with Fr. Deacon Ed.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Steve