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Posted by Turlough,

"I was perfectly happy sitting there quietly following along in my Missal until I met the East and read Scott Hahn's book on the Lamb's Supper.
It is this that I wish my fellow Catholics to see and understand. If they did, they would get so much more out of Mass because they would truly be lifting their hearts up unto the Lord, in the fullest possible way."

Dear Turlough,

This is what was at the heart of the renewal of the Latin Liturgy. It worked, I think.

Steve

Steve,

You are right, the true chain of command is you go to the pastor, then to the bishop. In a perfect world if there were problems they would be taken care of.

John

Dear Steve,

I will agree that in many ways Vatican II did make some improvements in trying to bring about more participation from the congregation. In that I rejoice and I am very happy to see the Vatican tightening up on the rubrics and seeking to restore some sanity in the Liturgy.

To be honest, I was quite partial to the interim
'65' missal. It kept much of the majesty of the Tridentine Mass but with some changes that allowed the use of the venacular in many places as well as keeping the Latin in many of the major prayers. IMHO many of the problems in the Liturgy may have been avoided if the Western Church had kept this missal. But that is only speculation on my part.

Of course my move East has nothing to do with the Liturgy. I find myself more in tune with the theological emphasis of the East than I do with that of the West.

I still love a good old fashioned High Mass and I love a Novus Ordo Mass when done with the Gregorian Chant and all the trimmings. So I cannot support those who would put down the Liturgy of the Roman Rite as promulgated today, but I can identify with the frustration that many feel.

But my heartfelt wish is for those of family and friends who remain in the West to receive the most that the Liturgy has to offer.

Terry

Dear Coalesco,

I can't agree with you more. Both about the Mass and the pews.

There are a few of us at the Melkite church that I attend who joke around and ask our priest when the pews are going to be removed. Well I guess some things just take time.

By the way is that you that I ran across when I visited the Monachos site?

The blessings of our God be upon you,

Terry

Well...er...YES, that was me embarassing myself!
Aside from the fact that some of the regulars there are bitterly anti-Catholic it can be a good board for information, and some posters there are very patient and reasonable.

Michael

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
I'd like to add some thoughts on this topic.

I first discovered the Byzantine Church on an EWTN program where they showed a portion of the Divine Liturgy. Then I did a lot of web searching to find out more and discovered there was a Byzantine Church in my area.

When I first attended Divine Liturgy I was startled to find an entense love for God exploding within me. I had a lot of trouble holding back the tears of joy I was experiencing then (and now). The Liturgy music haunted my mind thoughout the week and I couldn't wait to attend services again the next Sunday. The icons suddeningly opened up and became very personal to me.

One treasure I found most profound was the holy humility I found in my pastor and the entire congregation. Truly it is like seeing Christ in the people you meet.

Now I know I have finally come home. I spend time everyday learning through spiritual readings and prayers. And, I thank God Almighty for the blessings of the Byzantine Church. It has been the greatest gift I've ever received.

You are sounding like me. I still find myself humming the mass parts and the hymns and the prayers.

John

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Many more questions:

1) Where can someone fine examples of the 8 tones?

2) Where and when are:

Moleben to Jesus the Lover of Mankind

Acathist Hymn to Our Lord Jesus Christ

Moleben to the Holy Virgin Mary

Acathist Hymn to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Office of Consolation or Paraclisis

Done?

Thanks

John

Glory to Jesus!

I was wondering if anyone has ideas where to purchase Icons?

My wife and I are thinking about placing some in our home.

John

Glory forever!

Hello John,

Most parishes have a way to buy some, there is a problem with lack of demand for them in the general marketplace (a specialty item) so parishes make an attempt to make them available. Ask the parish secretary or look for a book and gift counter.

Saint Josephs Ukrainian Catholic church has a nice little bookstore. They are located on north Cumberland avenue in Chicago.

Pauline Books and Media has a few pricey imported originals. They have a store in downtown Chicago on Michigan Avenue.

The more common reproductions can be obtained through catalogs or internet:

Light and Life
http://light-n-life.com/

Eastern Christian Supply
http://www.easternchristian.com/

Those two should have what you need.

A good way to support your favorite Eastern Catholic monastery is to order from them, they could use all the support they can get:

http://www.hrmonline.org/

If you get tired of all this shopping and want some fruitcake instead:

http://www.societystjohn.com/index.html


Good luck,
MichaEL

Glory and praise to our Lord Jesus Christ!

Thanks for the info on the Icons, I am full of questions <grin>

Earlier I had asked about devotional services that I found in my Byzantine Prayer Book, but no one has answered. I have read these services and they are so beautiful! I am still wondering when, where and how they are done.

Thanks!

Your brother in Christ.

John Gibson

Dear John Gibson,

(Any relation to Mel? ).

The moleben and the akathist may be celebrated by us privately at any time.

There is a site that has LOADS of akathists: akafist.narod.ru but the majority are in Slavonic and other languages.

There developed in Russia the "Rule of Akathists" where monks and others prayed akathists throughout their night vigils.

The recently glorified Orthodox priest and miracle-worker, St Jonah of Odessa, got up regularly at midnight to pray akathists until morning.

His last miracle involved a blind girl over whose bed he prayed for nine nights and on the morning of the tenth day - she could see.

In Church, one may ask a priest to sing a moleben or an akathist for one's private intention. Akathists relating to special feasts are often sung on the date of those feasts.

Alex

Glory and Praise to Jesus Christ!

No relationship to Mel (I wish, then I could hit him up for some needed cash)

Thanks for the information on the devotions! This will help. Now yet another question <grin>

I am looking for MP3, WAV, or other media examples of the 8 tones. Being one of those chant deprived modern Romans who's only exposure to chant has been via CD and not in a liturgical setting, I am now looking to learn the tones so that I can more fully participate in the Divine Liturgy.

So if anyone can help me out there would be much thanks on my end.

Your Brother in Christ

John

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello John,

I am definately NOT the person to be answering this, but you deserve a response. I apologize or any innacuracies or omissions or poor assumptions included here.

Two points to make concerning the tones.

-1- They originally were from early Greece and based upon melodies of that bygone era, so the text could be sung "to the tune of".

-2- As the faith spread among other ethnic cultures and geographical regions the tones naturally evolved. The best way to describe it would be that the newer communities may have had trouble singing them "properly" in their isolated circumstances in their own dialects and collectively adapted them to their own satisfaction.

Therefore the tones will differ by tradition, the SubCarpathian Ruthenian tones should be slightly different from the Galician and both should be different from the Russian. Finding recorded samples that will help you learn them is tricky, because such material may intended for the training of clergy and cantors they may not be prepared for general sales, the "market" for such material is small. For example the Ruthenian Eparchy of Parma has all of 12,000 people scattered across seven states, and most of them have been listening to the tones for years at liturgy, and therefore will be able to sing along with the cantor even if they cannot remember which one is which by number, the cantor starts off and everyone instantly picks up the tone.

The Ruthenian Metropolia of Pittburgh went to English in the 1960's or 1970's and the commonly used tones may have suffered in the translation. It is also possible that cantors at various parishes are uneven in their own renditions. So I would not be surpised if there was some kind of change in the improved music coming out of Pittsburgh eventually.

So what I am saying is if you do pick up some recorded samples of the tones, or learning guides, they may not apply to your congregations specific usage. You will find instructional tapes available at the Byzantine Seminary Press, but wouldn't want them because they may not be useful in the future.

http://www.byzantines.net/byzantinepress/cd_video.htm

If you decide to attend a Ukrainian or Romanian church eventually the Sub-Carpathian Ruthenian material would be inappropriate.

My recomendation would be to attend the liturgies for a period of time and get used to the liturgy as rendered in your favorite parish. Then introduce yourself to the cantor! You will get a chance to go to cantor school and come back all ready to teach the rest of us!

MichaEL

LOL... I am having enough right now trying to get the family aclimated to the Eastern Rite as is right now. We already know we are in a year of discernment on this, so I am not going to go off and become a cantor (my wife would kill me)

I have stopped singning in the western rite at this point (not singing the hymns, but in the choir) due to the fact that I cannot bring myself to do the "Vox Dei" songs and the theologically doubful, shallow, and banal other hymns that are sung. Perhaps if East is in the Lord's plans for me I will be back singing for him.

We will be attending the local Byzantine Church this Sunday, and I can't wait to be there, we will be unable to go to the blowout that they are having for St. Nicholas Day due to the fact that I am driving the family downstate to pick up a new pet.

One of my good friends (the one that introduced the eastern rite to me is a cantor so I will ask him to teach me the tones.